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Derek Smith
Original Poster
16,058 posts
117 months
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/may/20/ed-...that's one that caught me out. It never occurred to me that Milliband would contemplate opting for a referendum. The question is whether it is a good move for votes. A recent referendum has shown that 25% of Tory supporters are considering, whatever that means, voting for UKIP although the seriousness of this is somewhat muted by 14% of Labour supporters suggesting the same thing. If Labour does promise a referendum, and one would assume that they would have to do so before the Euro elections in 2014, then they can campaign for a stay in (yes) vote and still come out smelling of roses if the vote goes against them. I'm very pro Europe although not in its present format. I was brought up in a family devastated by the two world wars and a unified Europe was seen as a way of stopping a repeat. However the waste and corporate corruption is putting even me off. We have the French president talking of protectionism. That's a good way of getting the world deeper into recession. As to which way I would vote, and don't forget historically on one of the reportedly 30% who are expected to vote yes, I have to say I am unsure. If we leave then I would assume we would move towards the USA, that something that I and all that keen on. This proposal would appear to come out of the blue. I for one have no idea it was even on the table, let alone being actively considered. Maybe this is just kite flying, to mix metaphors testing the water, but the more I look at it the more sensibly to be a pretty shrewd move. I could say the Tories pushing for it as well, making the promise of a referendum before the Euro elections. We are living, it would appear, in interesting times.
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Getragdogleg
3,670 posts
52 months
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Or it could just be that saying the word "referendum" when you are in opposition is the sure fire way to attract attention away from the other lot and tempt the people with a real choice about something many feel they have never been asked about.
It will never happen but it seems to be a political ploy wheeled out as a big gun against the other lot by which ever bunch of liars happens to be in at the time, if I remember correctly the Conservatives were making noises about this before fame and fortune smiled upon them, Labour did not want it while they were in power for thick end of 14 years.
It's a trick, Milliband is not clever, he is not a politician, none of them are. They are marketing men trying to get us fools to vote the right way to enable them some more trough time.
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thinfourth2
23,612 posts
73 months
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Promise a referendum  Once elected it will be forgotten within 15 nanoseconds
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Apache
38,250 posts
153 months
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Does anyone still believe anything a Politician says?.......apart from Derek of course 
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Crafty_
4,555 posts
69 months
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thinfourth2 said: Promise a referendum Once elected it will be forgotten within 15 nanoseconds This. some advisor somewhere came up with this, there will be some get out clause like Dave had.
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thinfourth2
23,612 posts
73 months
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Crafty_ said: This. some advisor somewhere came up with this, there will be some get out clause like Dave had. Oh yeah i thought i had heard the term referendum on europe before
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Puggit
29,537 posts
117 months
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I think this Guardian comment sums it up: Guardian leftie said: "Miliband is said to be genuinely undecided and cautious – not least because of the possibility that the country could vote to leave the EU"
God forbid the people give the 'wrong answer'. So basically the decision is being weighed up on whether it benefits Miliband rather than a proper debate on our membership.
The contempt all parties hold us voters in is astonishing.
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Derek Smith
Original Poster
16,058 posts
117 months
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It is an obvious reaction to the problems of the Tories and the rise of UKIP, the latter in reality having just the one policy.
The 'celver' bit in the title was, equally obviously I thought, ironic.
However, if they promise to have a referendum within 12 months of forming a government, would any historic tory voter consider putting their cross against a labour candidate?
It is a rather remarkable idea though. Labour, historically at one with the left in Europe, with a left Frenh president just voted in, putting this on the table. I can't see it getting through the labour policy machine but you never know. Float something like this and it can take on a life of its own.
With the apparent demise of the lib/dems there is every likelihood of a majority government next election. This would appear to be opportunistic, well more than appear, but there would be no opportunity of blaming a coalition party for failing to honour pledges, especially one which came with a timeline.
The reaction of the tories will be more than a little interesting. The right is creating all sorts of problems. If they get into the ascendent then, historically, the tories lose votes. Cameron will need something to head of the coup. What better than a pledge of their own?
This could be the start of something big.
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RichyBoy
2,070 posts
86 months
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Didn't they promise a referendum on the lisburn thing?
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Puggit
29,537 posts
117 months
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Derek, do we REALLY have to provide another link to the UKIP manifesto?
The attraction of UKIP isn't jut leaving the EU, it is some fresh thinking that none of the big 3 parties are capable of. It's fresh thinking that is needed at this time, because voting for any of the big 3 is opting for more of the same.
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chris watton
12,379 posts
129 months
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Haven't the last three elections had all (major) parties promise a referendum on the EU?
Surely if we fall for that again, then we truly deserve all we get! It is quite apparent that these people who falsely promise such referendums are nothing more than EU puppets, who treat the populous as utter fools - which, evidently, we are.
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Apache
38,250 posts
153 months
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Puggit said: Derek, do we REALLY have to provide another link to the UKIP manifesto?
The attraction of UKIP isn't jut leaving the EU, it is some fresh thinking that none of the big 3 parties are capable of. It's fresh thinking that is needed at this time, because voting for any of the big 3 is opting for more of the same. This...
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Puggit
29,537 posts
117 months
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Just for clarity, Labour offered a referendum on the EU constitution which was generally rejected across Europe. As a result Labour saw an opportunity to ditch it as unnecessary (thus avoiding a damning poll on th EU).
The Constituition was then remarketed as the Treaty of Lisbon, thus avoiding referenda across Europe (except Ireland who got it wrong so where told to vote agin until they got it right). Brown is a traitor to the UK.
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lazystudent
1,513 posts
30 months
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There will never be a referendum!
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Asterix
16,451 posts
97 months
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So no irony that the EU, led by Germany, is relatively close politically to what they tried to acheive militarily last time round?
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AndrewW-G
11,968 posts
86 months
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Labour promised a referendum in its 2005 manifesto, a promise that was swiftly reneged upon. The lib Dems promised one as part of their 2010 manifesto, yet as soon as they formed the coalition, this was rapidly dropped. The Conservatives in 2010 promised a referendum, before any further increase in EU powers. They've done everything they can since, to justify why every EU enhancement, doesn't qualify for that promised referendum. Oddly my Conservative MP, Esther McVey, blamed the lib Dems for the lack of referendum, or significant debate, when a few million people, signed a petition asking for one  IMHO you'd be foolish to believe that the big three, will ever give a true referendum on Europe. I'd suggest, that if one ever does happen, the question and the resultant policy effect, will be phrased in such a way, that we'll never have a In / Out option and certainly nothing capable of grabbing any significant power back from the EUSSR.
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turbobloke
55,495 posts
129 months
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Puggit
29,537 posts
117 months
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Derek is beginning to sound like some of the Telegraph writers affiliated to the Conservatives 
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Apache
38,250 posts
153 months
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Sounds like it, I had Derek down as a bit more savvy. UKIP are the new kid on the block and boy do we need some new blood, they may seem a bit ragged round the edges but (it would appear) they are beginning to worry the old guard
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turbobloke
55,495 posts
129 months
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Puggit said: Derek is beginning to sound like some of the Telegraph writers affiliated to the Conservatives But, like some including me, with CMD crossed off the Xmas card list, though in Derek's case probably in red ink scratching hard through the paper
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