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davepoth
19,925 posts
68 months
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rich1231 said: You could and you would still be wrong.
Message transformation is common place in all institutions. Not for the express purpose of breaking the law, I would hope.
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rich1231
16,623 posts
129 months
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davepoth said: Not for the express purpose of breaking the law, I would hope. Which again is just assumption dont you think?
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davepoth
19,925 posts
68 months
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rich1231 said: Which again is just assumption dont you think? You've read the document I posted, I hope?
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Murph7355
9,416 posts
125 months
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davepoth said: Not for the express purpose of breaking the law, I would hope. It's a while since I was involved with them, but IIRC Swift messages have very specific formats. Much of what is being described in the extracts you posted could just as easily have been done legitimately to meet format requirements and to remove extraneous information. I'm afraid I have little faith or trust in the US government's motives, nor in those of our media in jumping on this as they have. Again, it simply makes me think "where's the sleight of hand here, what should we be looking at". Also, read djstevec's post...
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Art0ir
3,600 posts
39 months
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Guam said: I seem to recall a number of years ago, Economists banging on about the Iranian/US issue being rooted in the fact that Iran was trying to move the Oil business into the Euro and away from the USD which would have had huge implications for the US financial system, due to its pre-eminence as a reserve currency. I think the argument made, was that there was real danger of bankrupting the US if it was successful.
Hopefully those in the know can put some flesh on the bones.
One does wonder if true, whether this is driven by that conceptually, rather than by sanction busting motives? Maddafhi and Saddam wanted to trade Oil in Gold too if that's what you're getting at, but I think that's for another thread.
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davepoth
19,925 posts
68 months
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Murph7355 said: davepoth said: Not for the express purpose of breaking the law, I would hope. It's a while since I was involved with them, but IIRC Swift messages have very specific formats. Much of what is being described in the extracts you posted could just as easily have been done legitimately to meet format requirements and to remove extraneous information. I'm afraid I have little faith or trust in the US government's motives, nor in those of our media in jumping on this as they have. Again, it simply makes me think "where's the sleight of hand here, what should we be looking at". Also, read djstevec's post... The allegation is that the stripping and altering of the information was done specifically to make it look like SCB in New York didn't know what the transactions were. New York State Department of Financial Services said: 26. SCB sought outside legal advice regarding its U-Turn policy and was apparently instructed that compliance with U.S. law required a process by which its New York branch received “foreknowledge of such authorized [U-Turn] payments” so as to “otherwise ascertain that the payments are authorized.” SCB was advised that its New York branch needed to “assure itself that it is making permissible payments.”
27. Rather than institute any such procedure, SCB instead conspired with Iranian Clients to transmit misinformation to the New York branch by removing and otherwise misrepresenting wire transfer data that could identify Iranian parties. For example, regarding necessary wire transfer documentation, SCB instructed CBI/Markazi to “send in their MT 202‟s with a [SCB London‟s business identifier code] as this is what we required them to do in the initial set up of the account. Therefore, the payments going to NY do not appear to NY to have come from an Iranian Bank.”
SCB also accomplished this subterfuge by:
(a) inserting special characters (such as “.”) in electronic message fields used to identify transacting parties; (b) inserting phrases such as “NO NAME GIVEN” or “NOT STATED” in lieu of requested information that would identify Iranian Clients; and (c) employing a system known as SCB‟s “repair procedure,” whereby SCB overseas employees screened payment messages – before they were communicated to its New York branch – in order to ascertain if any messages contained information that identified Iranian Clients. U-turn transactions weren't automatically illegal, but the US Government required oversight of them which would have caused a delay to payment. New York State Department of Financial Services said: 21. Years later, another SCB executive closely weighed the costs and benefits of concealing the identities of Iranian Clients. He observed that “the current process under which some SWIFT messages are manually ‘repaired’ to remove reference to Iran could (despite accepted SWIFT protocols) be perceived by OFAC as a measure to conceal the Iranian connection from SCB NY, and therefore evade their controls for filtering Iran-related payments.
Unless transactions are repaired they face delays caused by investigations in the U.S. banking system, subjecting SCB to interest claims.” He described SCB‟s repair procedures as a “process to check that a payment is, prima facie, an acceptable U-turn transaction (i.e. offshore to offshore),” and fully acknowledged that “they do not provide assurance that it does not relate to a prohibited transaction, and therefore SCB NY is exposed to the risk of a breach of sanctions.”
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Guam
15,399 posts
137 months
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Art0ir said: Maddafhi and Saddam wanted to trade Oil in Gold too if that's what you're getting at, but I think that's for another thread. Yes, but I was more intrigued by this as it relates to Standard Chartered 
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johnfm
9,020 posts
119 months
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I cannot believe I didn't short STAN yesterday when the story hit the papers.
Dropped 24% (about 340 points) so far - would have been a very nice few grand.
Still, good opportunity to buy soon I reckon. No way will the fines and loss of business be as much as 23% of its worth - unless the yanks get really stupid.
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Murph7355
9,416 posts
125 months
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davepoth said: Did you note the "could" in that last excerpt. It seems, increasingly, that the concept of innocent until proven guilty is meaningless in the US. Still, all this nonsense will result in is increasing amounts of traffic avoiding the US and its hamfisted methods. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. But as johnfm notes they might be worth a share purchase 
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davepoth
19,925 posts
68 months
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Murph7355 said: Did you note the "could" in that last excerpt. I did, and as it turns out so did the relevant financial authorities over there. 
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fbrs
7,643 posts
132 months
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when a person/corporate/swf has a chunk of foreign money they *very commonly* roll it to earn interest. this means lending it for as little as 1 day, daily. rolling $1bn every day for a year will generate 500bn in transactions (sell day 1, buy day 2, sell day 2, buy day3... x 250)... all that has happened is the bank has paid interest to borrow 1bn for a year. this is not a big transaction but generates big headline transaction numbers especially over 7 years. i dont think we yet have any idea what transactions sc are accused of doing but to me the numbers are simply too big to make sense as pure 'money laundering' and smack of usd currency rolls, a transaction where the money ends up back where it started plus interest. pure speculation on my part i freely admit.
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Murph7355
9,416 posts
125 months
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davepoth said: I did, and as it turns out so did the relevant financial authorities over there.  Point being it's neither news nor illegal unless "could" is turned into "was" 
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1point7bar
1,091 posts
17 months
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Using the SWIFT hierarchy politically poses a few questions.
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Eric Mc
67,257 posts
134 months
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Murph7355 said: davepoth said: I did, and as it turns out so did the relevant financial authorities over there.  Point being it's neither news nor illegal unless "could" is turned into "was"  The problem is that with a lot of modern anti-terrorist and money laundering legislation, "suspicion" (which equates to "could") is very close to guilty before proper legal process.
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Steffan
Original Poster
6,190 posts
97 months
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johnfm said: I cannot believe I didn't short STAN yesterday when the story hit the papers.
Dropped 24% (about 340 points) so far - would have been a very nice few grand.
Still, good opportunity to buy soon I reckon. No way will the fines and loss of business be as much as 23% of its worth - unless the yanks get really stupid. Interesting that you defend the losses and fines on the basis that the business can afford them. Unless the Americans " Get really stupid". Your approach underlines the real problem with this banking business. Honesty in all business requires the business to make every effort to comply with the laws governing the transactions. Particularly international banking business where transactions are cross border and inevitably require detailed and precise reporting. By law. Honesty does NOT involve seeing what you can get away with and deliberately misleading and hiding transactions, with criminal intent. That is simple dishonesty. The fact that you cannot seem to distinguish between those two different approaches is not a defence to the dishonesty. Or even a plea in mitigation. I think you may find extremely serious consequences to the bank concerned. I suspect the authorities may consider revoking the banking licence. In which case, game over.
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fbrs
7,643 posts
132 months
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Steffan said: Particularly international banking business where transactions are cross border and inevitably require detailed and precise reporting. By law. yet you choose not to pontificate about what should happen to deloitte who appear to have covered this up. interesting. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/07/us-stand...pfff. this accounting business is out of control, offshore tax avoidance, money laundering, aiding sanction breaches with terrorists, i dont know. if only we could return to a more simple kind of accounting
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Steffan
Original Poster
6,190 posts
97 months
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fbrs said: Steffan said: Particularly international banking business where transactions are cross border and inevitably require detailed and precise reporting. By law. yet you choose not to ponificate about what should happen to deloitte who appear to have covered this up. interesting. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/07/us-stand...pfff. this accounting business is out of control, offshore tax avoidance, money laundering, aiding sanction breaches with terrorists, i dont know. if only we could return to a more simple kind of accounting I am not defending Deliottes in any way whatsoever. This topic is about banking and I restricted my comments to the banking questions in this matter. If you wish to start a topic on Deloittes role in this appalling disgrace I would happily join in the criticism. I would welcome a return to far greater independence by the auditors. However we must remember the consequences of the Hedly Byrne decision and the Capparo Industries case, Smith v Eric Bush, White v Jones and Henderson v Merrett Syndicates cases and of course the Ta Hing Cotton Mill v Liu Chong Hing Bank case all have a relevance and effect on the duty of care of professionals in auditing and indeed in professional practice generally. Probably the most apposite case is the case where the famous (for accountants) line by the judge, Pennycuik J that " The Auditor is a watchdog and not a bloodhound" was first heard. In the High Court. Which really answers your question. Above all else the primary responsiblity must be that of the bank itself. I think that these matters are best discussed in another topic. Which you are most welcome to start. My concern here is the constant excuses offered for outright dishonesty on a staggering scale at Standard Chartered Bank. Which once again underlines the reason I started this topic. The banking business clearly is, has been for some time and remains, out of control.
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davepoth
19,925 posts
68 months
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Murph7355 said: davepoth said: I did, and as it turns out so did the relevant financial authorities over there.  Point being it's neither news nor illegal unless "could" is turned into "was"  It was someone from SCB who said "could"; New York have pretty much decided on the "was".
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fbrs
7,643 posts
132 months
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Steffan said: However we must remember the consequences of the Hedly Byrne decision and the Capparo Industries case, Smith v Eric Bush, White v Jones and Henderson v Merrett Syndicates cases and of course the Ta Hing Cotton Mill v Liu Chong Hing Bank case all have a relevance and effect on the duty of care of professionals in auditing and indeed in professional practice generally.
Probably the most apposite case is the case where the famous (for accountants) line by the judge, Pennycuik J that " The Auditor is a watchdog and not a bloodhound" was first heard. In the High Court.
Which really answers your question. i wasnt aware i had one, but thanks. it's clear from above accounting makes as much sense to me as banking does to you! i'll give a thread on accounting a miss...
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Steffan
Original Poster
6,190 posts
97 months
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fbrs said: Steffan said: However we must remember the consequences of the Hedly Byrne decision and the Capparo Industries case, Smith v Eric Bush, White v Jones and Henderson v Merrett Syndicates cases and of course the Ta Hing Cotton Mill v Liu Chong Hing Bank case all have a relevance and effect on the duty of care of professionals in auditing and indeed in professional practice generally.
Probably the most apposite case is the case where the famous (for accountants) line by the judge, Pennycuik J that " The Auditor is a watchdog and not a bloodhound" was first heard. In the High Court.
Which really answers your question. i wasnt aware i had one, but thanks. it's clear from above accounting makes as much sense to me as banking does to you! i'll give a thread on accounting a miss... I rather thought you might. The technicalities of banking are not my concern. The obvious misfeance, deliberate dishonesty and repeated revelations of wholesale international abuse in banking on a monumental scale do concern me. The latest revelations of the circumstances at Standard Chartered are just that. The latest set of disastrous details. Before that within the last few weeks we have had the Libor revelations, the HSBC revelations, the PPI revelations, and so on. Time after time after time. These problems can only be addressed by creating a profitable, controlled disciplined and trusted banking sector. The challenge is to address the problems and create a controlled and disciplined banking sector. Excusing the misfeance will only prolong the problems.
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