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martin84
Original Poster
5,366 posts
22 months
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The Telegraph said: The Prime Minister uses an article in The Sunday Telegraph to say that Britain is in danger of getting swamped by EU legislation and bureaucracy which he would like to see scrapped. He makes clear for the first time that changes will need the “full-hearted support of the British people” down the line and adds: “For me the two words 'Europe’ and 'referendum’ can go together.”
Mr Cameron’s landmark move comes as Liam Fox, the former defence secretary, prepares to up the stakes by calling for an immediate renegotiation of Britain’s relationship with the EU. If other member states fail to back this solution, Dr Fox believes, there should be a referendum with the government recommending pulling the UK out of the EU.
This newspaper has learned that Dr Fox, the standard bearer of the Tory right, will tell activists tomorrow: “For my own part, life outside the EU holds no terror. We have not moved the goalposts. But they have been moved nevertheless. We must now respond.”
The former cabinet minister’s clarion call is likely to be greeted with delight by Eurosceptics on the Right of the party — a constituency which Mr Cameron has had difficulty in the past convincing that he is on the correct track.
The dramatic developments come in the wake of last week’s Brussels summit in which leaders of the eurozone countries took the first steps toward a rescue plan for the single currency. At the same time, approximately 100 Conservative MPs wrote a letter to the Prime Minister calling on him to legislate for a referendum on Britain’s relationship with the EU to be held in future years. Many of Mr Cameron’s most senior aides have been urging him to take such a step for several months.
At a news conference following the summit, however, the Prime Minister ruled out a straight “in or out” referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, saying it was not the right thing to do. His comments alarmed many in his party, with backbenchers predicting he would have to perform a U-turn.
Senior advisers to Mr Cameron insisted last night that this misrepresented his views and that his article sets out his true thinking — that a referendum is possible when the time is right.
The Prime Minister also signals that he will use his speech to the Tory conference in October to spell out the areas where he wants Britain to claw back powers from Brussels — a move which will be cheered by party activists. He pledges: “Let us start to spell out in more detail the parts of our European engagement we want and those to end.”
Detailed plans for repatriating powers — a key point of difference between the Tories and the Liberal Democrats —are likely to be spelled out in the Conservative manifesto either for the 2014 European parliamentary elections or the 2015 general election, or both.
Mr Cameron argues that an in or out referendum is not the right choice because the “vast majority of the British people” wants changes to the current relationship with the EU.
“The fact is the British people are not happy with what they have — and frankly neither am I,” he writes. “Put simply, for those of us outside the eurozone, far from being too little Europe there is too much of it. Too much cost, too much bureaucracy, too much meddling in issues that belong to nation states or civil society or, indeed, individuals.
“Whole swathes of legislation covering social issues, working time and home affairs should, in my view, be scrapped.”
The Prime Minister says, however, that “tactical and strategic patience” is needed – partly because his party is in coalition with the pro-European Lib Dems and partly because the eurozone crisis is taking most of the EU closer towards full integration. He adds: “There is more to come – further moves, probably further treaties – where we can take forward our interests, safeguard the single market and stay out of a federal Europe.
“How do we take the British people with us on this difficult and complicated journey? How do we avoid the wrong paths of either meekly accepting the status quo or giving up altogether and preparing to leave? It will undoubtedly be hard going, but taking the right path in politics often is.
“As we get closer to the end point we will need to consider how best to get the full-hearted support of the British people, whether it is in a general election or a referendum. “As I have said, for me the two words 'Europe’ and 'referendum’ can go together, particularly if we really are proposing a change in how our country is governed, but let us get the people a real choice first.”
The Prime Minister also declares: “We need to recognise that Europe is changing – and fast. The single currency is driving a process that will see its members take more and more steps towards fuller integration. They are necessary if the euro is to survive, but mean that the EU and relationships within it will have to change.”
Dr Fox, who resigned as defence secretary in October 2011 after revelations about his links with his friend and former adviser, Adam Werritty, will take a much starker view in his speech tomorrow. In extracts given in advance to The Sunday Telegraph, he agrees with the Prime Minister that Britain’s interests are not served by its current relationship with the EU and also says a that an in/out referendum soon would be a “huge error” with enormous tactical risks.
Where Mr Cameron calls for tactical and strategic “patience”, however, Dr Fox calls for an immediate renegotiation of Britain’s relationship with the EU – a union which he argues has “fundamentally changed” because of the eurozone.
He adds: “I would like to see Britain negotiate a new relationship on the basis that, if we achieved it and our future relationship was economic rather than political, we would advocate acceptance in a referendum of this new dynamic. “If, on the other hand, others would not accede to out requests for a rebalancing in the light of the response to the euro crisis, then we would recommend rejection and potential departure from the EU.
“For my own part, life outside the EU holds no terror. I believe globalisation will increasingly force countries to cooperate more closely on the basis of functional commonality rather than geographical proximity. It would, though, given our economic interdependence be to the advantage of all to create a more stable and mutually agreed compromise.”
Dr Fox plans to use stirring rhetoric in his call for action, claiming: “There will be those who say that this is the wrong time and that it is politically difficult or even impossible. These are the perpetual arguments for inertia. This is not the time for party political games or tactical point scoring.
The Prime Minister uses an article in The Sunday Telegraph to say that Britain is in danger of getting swamped by EU legislation and bureaucracy which he would like to see scrapped. He makes clear for the first time that changes will need the “full-hearted support of the British people” down the line and adds: “For me the two words 'Europe’ and 'referendum’ can go together.”
Mr Cameron’s landmark move comes as Liam Fox, the former defence secretary, prepares to up the stakes by calling for an immediate renegotiation of Britain’s relationship with the EU. If other member states fail to back this solution, Dr Fox believes, there should be a referendum with the government recommending pulling the UK out of the EU.
This newspaper has learned that Dr Fox, the standard bearer of the Tory right, will tell activists tomorrow: “For my own part, life outside the EU holds no terror. We have not moved the goalposts. But they have been moved nevertheless. We must now respond.”
The former cabinet minister’s clarion call is likely to be greeted with delight by Eurosceptics on the Right of the party — a constituency which Mr Cameron has had difficulty in the past convincing that he is on the correct track.
The dramatic developments come in the wake of last week’s Brussels summit in which leaders of the eurozone countries took the first steps toward a rescue plan for the single currency. At the same time, approximately 100 Conservative MPs wrote a letter to the Prime Minister calling on him to legislate for a referendum on Britain’s relationship with the EU to be held in future years. Many of Mr Cameron’s most senior aides have been urging him to take such a step for several months.
Our national interest is at stake and that trumps all other considerations. We must all rise to the challenge.” Mr Cameron has had an increasingly tricky relationship with his party’s Eurosceptic right. Last October he was hit by a large-scale rebellion in the Commons as 81 Tory MPs defied party whips in a vote for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU.
Two junior government aides resigned their posts as parliamentary private secretaries. The Prime Minister recovered some ground in December when he wielded Britain’s veto at a Brussels summit to thwart plans for a new Treaty on closer EU integration because of insufficient safeguards for the City of London. He was hailed as a hero by many of his party’s MPs for his use of the veto, which opened up a major rift inside the coalition, with loud protests from the Lib Dems.
However, Mr Cameron was later accused of retreating from his tough stance as further negotiations continued. A Tory opinion poll “bounce” which coincided with his use of the veto melted away as Labour began to build large leads. In today’s ICM poll for The Sunday Telegraph, 68 per cent of voters say there should be a referendum before any further transfer of power from the UK to the EU. Anything of any substance or more wishy washy, might do, might consider but only if you vote me in again cobblers?
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Borghetto
1,488 posts
52 months
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A political promise and of no value.
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davepoth
19,858 posts
68 months
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Borghetto said: A political promise and of no value. Depends on how big the revolt is really. If Labour decide to start stirring and whip for a referendum, they're quite close to a majority in the commons...
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Hoover.
4,867 posts
111 months
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When will a politician get some balls, and actually do something, rather then being a limp wristed w  ker I.m not atory or labour person, niether middle of the road....... just want someone to do something that may have a chance... and all this limp wristed stuff just leaves us muddling on doing the same old stuff.
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martin84
Original Poster
5,366 posts
22 months
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This sums up why I dislike David Cameron. It's like he starts a sentence saying something bold and profound but then uses the following paragraph to backtrack over all of it. All of this is 'might do' 'might not' 'may consider' 'may think about considering one day' and it's just far too wishy washy and pointless.
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Symbolica
8,908 posts
84 months
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A nothing promise from a nothing person.
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Pesty
25,817 posts
125 months
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Its almost like all these f  k ups and bashing in the papers recently makes him think tossing us a few popularist bones will get us to like him. empty words, he really does hold us in contempt.
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speedy_thrills
5,628 posts
112 months
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davepoth said: If Labour decide to start stirring and whip for a referendum, they're quite close to a majority in the commons... Labour would love an EU referendum, it would put immense pressure on the coalition. A UKIP/Tory coalition wouldn't have nearly enough seats, better off keeping the Liberal Democrats in a headlock coalition or go further left and trying to pinch enough Labour votes go it alone. Most opinion polls I've seen suggest that an "stay in" vote for EU membership still has a slight majority, but it's close and creeping towards an "out" vote. If they really wanted to get the UK out and believe the EU situation isn't going to improve soon they should leave it another few years when they'll have the numbers. Every time the coalition tries to change social policies they are punished on public opinion. There are no Tory votes to be won in social welfare or healthcare reform (and it's destroying their coalition partners of course which will be a problem if they need them again next time), stick to economic policy and hope they can weather the next election. They can't seem to resist the temptation to fiddle though.
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0a
8,427 posts
63 months
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Miliband will promise an EU referendum if Labour get in at the next election.
The Tories will promise one first to pre-empt them.
I have stated to my local Tory MP that they have my vote if they offer a referendum, if they refuse it's UKIP time and a Labour government.
I think the Tories understand that they will lose the next election to UKIP (not Labour as they have nothing to offer) if they refuse a referendum.
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0a
8,427 posts
63 months
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speedy_thrills said: Most opinion polls I've seen suggest that an "stay in" vote for EU membership still has a slight majority, but it's close and creeping towards an "out" vote. If they really wanted to get the UK out and believe the EU situation isn't going to improve soon they should leave it another few years when they'll have the numbers. None that I have seen have suggested the vote would be anything other than a solid 'out' by a good margin for a few years now. People are even hostile to the trade elements of the EU: Populus/Timespoll said: A third - 32 per cent - wanted the UK to be part of a single market in a wider European community as against 40 per cent who did not, while 27 per cent said they did not know. ICM/Guardianpoll said: Some 70% of voters want a vote on Britain's EU membership, and by a substantial nine-point margin respondents say they would vote for UK withdrawal.
Forty-nine per cent would vote to get Britain out of Europe, against just 40% who prefer to stay in. It would be very strange for this to change suddenly as the support for exit is fairly cross party.
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martin84
Original Poster
5,366 posts
22 months
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Pesty said: Its almost like all these f  k ups and bashing in the papers recently makes him think tossing us a few popularist bones will get us to like him. empty words, he really does hold us in contempt. He's thrown a few things out there in the last couple of weeks as he tries to clean up the damage of BudgetGate. Public support for the coalition (according to polls) looked to be reasonably ok up until budget time this year, now it's all fallen off a cliff and in the last few months the Government have really lost their way. Cameron is trying to push the reset button on the Government and is sort of starting his election campaign now, with the speech on Welfare reform last week being a case in point. A few weeks ago his party was telling him he's losing support from Tory voters and the public wants to hear about things which matter rather than gay marriage and House of Lords reform, he's caught up this week and is throwing a few things out there but he's such an amateur at it his skin is translucent. 0a said: think the Tories understand that they will lose the next election to UKIP (not Labour as they have nothing to offer) if they refuse a referendum. Well UKIP will never win but the slice of Tory votes which head to UKIP may well lose the Tories the election, which I presume is what you meant. Almost a million people voted UKIP in 2010, if the Conservative's had got the bulk of them votes they'd be governing as a single party right now. Both parties have the election in mind already, Cameron with his welfare speech and Miliband with his piece on immigration within days of each other. For me its far too early to even be thinking about it, as the country is in recession and this new banking scandal should take up most of the politicians time for the forseeable future. As it stands right now you have to say Labour would win the next election, but local election results and opinion polls generally count for very little this far out from an election. In the 80s Labour did far better under Kinnock on a local level than they are now, but nearly came third in a general election at the same time, so people's voting choices differ depending on what's at stake. The European Parliament elections are in 2014 and I'd expect a strong UKIP turnout for that, if so that might be the kick up the arse the Conservative's need.
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speedy_thrills
5,628 posts
112 months
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0a said: It would be very strange for this to change suddenly as the support for exit is fairly cross party. Interesting, but isn't this likely to be a three way option rather than two? That is an Out, In or Renegotiate terms.
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Mojooo
7,276 posts
49 months
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I would be amazed if a referendum led to 'stay in' outcome - the vast majority of voters are thickos and the default positions appears to be 'EU = bad'.
Any Goverment that took a referendum on the EU would only do so if they were sure they wanted to leave the EU and just wanted to look like they were democratic in the process.
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JulianHJ
6,612 posts
131 months
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I trust absolutely nothing that CMD says. I don't think there will be referendum either, no matter how strong public opinion is.
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Elroy Blue
5,678 posts
61 months
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I WAS a lifelong Tory voter. Cameron is a slimey, lying toad. He is the caricature of what people think of as a 'Tory'. A wealthy person, out of touch and who has complete contempt for the 'little people'.
His words mean NOTHING.
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thinfourth2
23,511 posts
73 months
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He is considering it in the same way that i might consider nailing my scrotum to the floor
Won't happen as he knows he would loose
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turbobloke
55,469 posts
129 months
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martin84 said: more wishy washy, might do, might consider but only if you vote me in again cobblers That's exactly how it looks. martin84 said: the slice of Tory votes which head to UKIP may well lose the Tories the election Which is why CMD's hand will be forced on this one. He's not that good at leadership but he might turn out to have something on the followership side. If by any chance he thinks being stubborn in the face of failure is leadership then the Conservatives will lose.
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powerstroke
1,719 posts
29 months
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This is more of the same old same old !!! Exactly the same as the welfare BS he came out with the other day.. sounds good in the same way as friend promising to pay off your morgage when they win the lottery.. 
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AndrewW-G
11,968 posts
86 months
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It's a load of s  t, so much so, that I'll give £100 to the PH charity of the day, if we get a proper referendum on our membership of the EU, within the next 12 months. As somebody who was a member of the Conservative party for over 20 years, I can unfortunately say, that IMHO Cameron and George are screwing up the party and therefore the country, with their blinkered idiocy.
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thinfourth2
23,511 posts
73 months
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AndrewW-G said: It's a load of s  t, so much so, that I'll give £100 to the PH charity of the day, if we get a proper referendum on our membership of the EU, within the next 12 months. I'll give a billion pounds to everyone in the UK if it happens within 12 months I've been taking tips from CMD
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