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ukwill
7,248 posts
76 months
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crankedup said: I still say Ed Balls would make a far better Chancellor than Osbourne. He has done very little during his two years apart from cause the economy to flat-line, see long term unemployment numbers rise, sat back with zero plans for a growth strategy. He is clearly out of his depth as Chancellor, Ed Balls couldn't do worse. We need a change of Chancellor, and fast. It may be tough for Dave to sack his dear old chum, but it has to be done.
Also bear in mind that the Tories continued to back Labours spending plans up to the end of 2007, so clearly they were also oblivious to the forthcoming financial meltdown. And yet you are simply unable to clarify why you think Ed Balls would make a far better Chancellor. Clearly you've absolved him of any of the consequences of his several years spent running the treasury, and as Brown's "economic guru" throughout the entire tenure of the last Govt. Now, 2yrs into trying to fix a thoroughly shafted economy, one that was left with a budget deficit 2nd only to Greece and the third highest level of private debt in the entire world, and you're blaming the incumbent for not providing "growth"? f  king LOL.
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andymadmak
6,218 posts
139 months
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crankedup said: I still say Ed Balls would make a far better Chancellor than Osbourne. He has done very little during his two years apart from cause the economy to flat-line, see long term unemployment numbers rise, Unemployment is falling is it not? crankedup said: sat back with zero plans for a growth strategy. And yet bbc website said: Good news from the labour market this week raised hopes that the economy might not be as weak as the official figures have suggested. Today's public finances figures continue the puzzle.
Tax revenues in the first three months of the fiscal year are running 2.5% higher than last year, which is not something you would usually see in a flat or shrinking economy. Crankedup said: He is clearly out of his depth as Chancellor, Ed Balls couldn't do worse. We need a change of Chancellor, and fast. It may be tough for Dave to sack his dear old chum, but it has to be done. and yet according to the IMF............ bbc website quoting the IMF said: The government should slow the pace of budget cuts next year if UK growth does not recover, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has said.
Its annual report on the UK says that tax rises and spending cuts introduced since spring 2010 have cut growth by a total of 2.5% over the past two years.
The IMF gave a summary of the report in May. Since then, the government has introduced growth measures, such as providing funding for lending.
The IMF praised these moves.
But it added that if growth did not pick up, other measures, such as temporary tax cuts and more means-testing of benefits, should be considered.
The IMF, which is headed by Christine Lagarde, who presented the report's summary findings in May, said: "If growth does not take off and unemployment fails to recede even after substantial further monetary stimulus and strong credit easing measures have been given time to work, the policy response should include a further slowing of fiscal consolidation." So far from being out of his depth, Mr Osbourne appears to have largely stablised the sinking ship that Brown/Balls and co left behind, and despite a Eurozone in crisis has achieved falling unemployment and increased tax revenues. He has even managed to introduce stimulus packages for the economy without having to borrow and increase debt in the way that Balls was advocating. I say, not a bad effort given the s  t pie he was left to digest. Crankedup said: Also bear in mind that the Tories continued to back Labours spending plans up to the end of 2007, so clearly they were also oblivious to the forthcoming financial meltdown  You are joking right? We had a decade of Brown saying he had ABOLISHED boom and bust economics. No political party stood a cat in hells chance of getting anyone to listen to them saying anything to the contrary until 2007, when it became too obvious for even the most hard of thinking to ignore the problems. Except of course that "Brilliant Economic Politician" Ed Balls, who still thinks we should have carried on borrowing and spending..............
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tonker
43,800 posts
117 months
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Can we clarify one thing - the only reason any incoming government didn't annihilate spending (especially on the State and handouts) was because these people have a vote - not because they cared about the spending or those being spent upon - it was utterly, utterly selfish and all about getting elected and re-elected - nothing more, nothing less.
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powerstroke
1,719 posts
29 months
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crankedup said: I still say Ed Balls would make a far better Chancellor than Osbourne. He has done very little during his two years apart from cause the economy to flat-line, see long term unemployment numbers rise, sat back with zero plans for a growth strategy. He is clearly out of his depth as Chancellor, Ed Balls couldn't do worse. We need a change of Chancellor, and fast. It may be tough for Dave to sack his dear old chum, but it has to be done.
Also bear in mind that the Tories continued to back Labours spending plans up to the end of 2007, so clearly they were also oblivious to the forthcoming financial meltdown. Hmm We do like a laugh...seriouly the only job Balls or his hatefull wife should get is replacing a vilage's missing idiot...
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martin84
5,366 posts
22 months
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Osborne is quite gormless and doesn't seem to really have a coherant plan. He's done whats needed to stop things getting much worse but aside from that I'm not sure he's got any ideas.
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s2art
13,148 posts
122 months
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martin84 said: Osborne is quite gormless and doesn't seem to really have a coherant plan. He's done whats needed to stop things getting much worse but aside from that I'm not sure he's got any ideas. Maybe. But consider the possibility that Osborne is doing everything he can, given the restraints of coalition. He is certainly in a fight to the death with the Lib-dims regarding green subsidies. Also consider the possibility that had any other plan been followed, we would have been in an even worse position.
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martin84
5,366 posts
22 months
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s2art said: Maybe. But consider the possibility that Osborne is doing everything he can, given the restraints of coalition. He is certainly in a fight to the death with the Lib-dims regarding green subsidies. Also consider the possibility that had any other plan been followed, we would have been in an even worse position. Perhaps but being slightly less s  t than the alternative is pretty much the best you can say about the Tories these days.
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Caulkhead
4,938 posts
26 months
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martin84 said: Perhaps but being slightly less s  t than the alternative is pretty much the best you can say about the coalition these days. - EFA - we haven't had a tory government since 1997. . . . .
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martin84
5,366 posts
22 months
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Caulkhead said: - EFA - we haven't had a tory government since 1997. . . . .
What conclusion do you draw from that regarding the Tories nationwide popularity?
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turbobloke
55,479 posts
129 months
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martin84 said: Caulkhead said: - EFA - we haven't had a tory government since 1997. . . . .
What conclusion do you draw from that regarding the Tories nationwide popularity? That it's been overcome by the impact of electoral boundaries and the presence of a disproportionate Labour influence from Wales and Scotland which affects Westminster even with their own 'national' set of incompetent politicians being voted in. 2005 GE  As to the Conservatives popularity on a wider front, their biggest problem is not being popular with Conservative voters.
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martin84
5,366 posts
22 months
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turbobloke said: That it's been overcome by the impact of electoral boundaries and the presence of a disproportionate Labour influence from Wales and Scotland which affects Westminster even with their own 'national' set of incompetent politicians being voted in. 2005 GE  As to the Conservatives popularity on a wider front, their biggest problem is not being popular with Conservative voters. So it can't just be the Conservatives fail to get the votes where they need them? That map has a lot of blue but if you look closer you'll see a lot of the blue sections are large constituencies in terms of land area. Places like Birmingham have a very condensed population and albiet it's a spec of red on the map its still 20 odd seats. It is interesting the Tories generally do well in England (apart from large sections of the North it seems) but there's more giant panda's than Tory MP's in Scotland. Why do they struggle so much in Wales, Scotland and N Ireland? Blaming everybody but the Tories everytime the Tories fail to get a majority does smack of sour grapes though. In terms of land size that map is pretty even between Blue and Red, just theres more seats up for grabs in the heavily populated areas (obviously).
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turbobloke
55,479 posts
129 months
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martin84 said: turbobloke said: That it's been overcome by the impact of electoral boundaries and the presence of a disproportionate Labour influence from Wales and Scotland which affects Westminster even with their own 'national' set of incompetent politicians being voted in. 2005 GE  As to the Conservatives popularity on a wider front, their biggest problem is not being popular with Conservative voters. So it can't just be the Conservatives fail to get the votes where they need them? That map has a lot of blue but if you look closer you'll see a lot of the blue sections are large constituencies in terms of land area. Places like Birmingham have a very condensed population and albiet it's a spec of red on the map its still 20 odd seats. Agreed, that was partly behind the comment about disproportionate influence, particularly in Wales which is apparently a focus of the current proposed boundary changes. On occasions the effect you describe is reflected too well with too many seats in a small speck, beyond the relative demographics. martin84 said: It is interesting the Tories generally do well in England (apart from large sections of the North it seems) but there's more giant panda's than Tory MP's in Scotland. Why do they struggle so much in Wales, Scotland and N Ireland? Good question. As a suggestion only, I would say it has something to do with traditions and tribalism. martin84 said: Blaming everybody but the Tories I blame the Conservatives for not getting the votes of natural Conservative voters, it's nobody else's fault! martin84 said: sour grapes Not really. As others have pointed out in other threads, the Conservatives won England with 40% to Labour’s 28% and the Lib Dems 24% giving a Tory lead of 12% which is landslide territory. Sort the boundaries including Wales, tackle the West Lothian question, and this may become reflected more accurately at Westminster considering the votes cast in 2010. Conservative 10,726,614 Labour 8,609,527 Liberal Democrat 6,836,824 GE 2010  Compare to 2005 as posted earlier.
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s2art
13,148 posts
122 months
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martin84 said: s2art said: Maybe. But consider the possibility that Osborne is doing everything he can, given the restraints of coalition. He is certainly in a fight to the death with the Lib-dims regarding green subsidies. Also consider the possibility that had any other plan been followed, we would have been in an even worse position. Perhaps but being slightly less s  t than the alternative is pretty much the best you can say about the Tories these days. What I am saying is that due to the unholy mess NuLab left us in, coupled to the Euro nightmare, compounded by a global turndown and the cherry on top of the s  t pie being increased commodity prices, that this is about as good as it gets. Any other approach would have been worse.
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turbobloke
55,479 posts
129 months
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s2art said: martin84 said: s2art said: Maybe. But consider the possibility that Osborne is doing everything he can, given the restraints of coalition. He is certainly in a fight to the death with the Lib-dims regarding green subsidies. Also consider the possibility that had any other plan been followed, we would have been in an even worse position. Perhaps but being slightly less s  t than the alternative is pretty much the best you can say about the Tories these days. What I am saying is that due to the unholy mess NuLab left us in, coupled to the Euro nightmare, compounded by a global turndown and the cherry on top of the s  t pie being increased commodity prices, that this is about as good as it gets. Any other approach would have been worse. Ed and Ed in charge at the moment doesn't bear thinking about.
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martin84
5,366 posts
22 months
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turbobloke said: Good question. As a suggestion only, I would say it has something to do with traditions and tribalism. Why do you think that? Can it not just be people in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have different political viewpoints to those in England? As for the map, constituencies are designed to have pretty much the same amount of voters in them as each other which is totally right (albiet rarely achieved accurately). A factor of that is a spec on the map can have 5 million people in it and a big blue area is more rural, so it looks like Tory landslide when it's not. That would conform to stereotype and generalisation of more expensive, wealther parts of the country with higher levels of home ownership voting Tory and the more dense, communal areas such as Birmingham voting Labour. Could it just be that places like Scotland, Wales etc relies more on the state so it naturally sides with the left sided parties? It's interesting to note 84% of the UK's population is in England so maybe there's a case for the other nations having less say in who enters Downing Street. turbobloke said: I blame the Conservatives for not getting the votes of natural Conservative voters, it's nobody else's fault! Again where has this idea come from? Even in the three elections Labour won, the Conservative's still averaged 9 million votes a time. Indeed despite Labour's landslide in terms of seats in 1997, Major's Tories actually got more votes than Labour did in 2005. Seeing as the Conservative's were in office for the 18 years prior to Blair becoming PM, who do you blame for the 1997 one? Or do we largely ignore that on the basis that the 2005 election was incredibly weird, you shouldnt be able to return a 40 odd seat majority with 9.5million votes really. What I'm saying is it's not like the Tories have lost a voterbase, I'm not sure swinging to the right is going to help them. s2art said: What I am saying is that due to the unholy mess NuLab left us in, coupled to the Euro nightmare, compounded by a global turndown and the cherry on top of the s  t pie being increased commodity prices, that this is about as good as it gets. Any other approach would have been worse. The public finance deficit is obviously a massive issue and the previous Government has to take responsibility for that but the rest of it is external factors. I'd hate to be the Chancellor right now, any Chancellor of any party because he/she literally would find they have no options.
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turbobloke
55,479 posts
129 months
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martin84 said: turbobloke said: Good question. As a suggestion only, I would say it has something to do with traditions and tribalism. Why do you think that? Can it not just be people in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have different political viewpoints to those in England? Yes it could but I was giving people credit for realising that Labour are serially incompetent and can be relied on to nearly bankrupt the country while doing little of use to the average person. As such, hating the Tories for irrational reasons such as 'our family has always voted Labour' and basically 'we hate the Tories because we do so we always vote Labour' seemed like an explanation. It still does. You mention another reason later on in your post. martin84 said: As for the map, constituencies are designed to have pretty much the same amount of voters in them as each other which is totally right (albiet rarely achieved accurately). A factor of that is a spec on the map can have 5 million people in it and a big blue area is more rural, so it looks like Tory landslide when it's not. That would conform to stereotype and generalisation of more expensive, wealther parts of the country with higher levels of home ownership voting Tory and the more dense, communal areas such as Birmingham voting Labour. The planned boundary changes should help there, and help the Conservatives by making the outcome of elections more in keeping with how votes are cast. martin84 said: Could it just be that places like Scotland, Wales etc relies more on the state so it naturally sides with the left sided parties? Yes it could but not as a complete explanation obviously. martin84 said: It's interesting to note 84% of the UK's population is in England so maybe there's a case for the other nations having less say in who enters Downing Street. Yes maybe so. Proportional represemtation will never make it but removing disproportional representation might... martin84 said: turbobloke said: I blame the Conservatives for not getting the votes of natural Conservative voters, it's nobody else's fault! Again where has this idea come from? Because I suspect that a number disillusioned Conservatives are deserting CMD's flavour of Conservatism for UKIP, which got to within a percent of the libdims in a poll not long ago. martin84 said: Even in the three elections Labour won, the Conservative's still averaged 9 million votes a time. Agreed, if there is an effect it's probably changing over time. martin84 said: The public finance deficit is obviously a massive issue and the previous Government has to take responsibility for that but the rest of it is external factors. I'd hate to be the Chancellor right now, any Chancellor of any party because he/she literally would find they have no options. Almost, apparently Balls would borrow yet more and among other things would create more fake non-jobs.
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martin84
5,366 posts
22 months
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turbobloke said: Because I suspect that a number disillusioned Conservatives are deserting CMD's flavour of Conservatism for UKIP, which got to within a percent of the libdims in a poll not long ago. Perhaps but those disillusioned Conservatives are probably the same people who were voting for Hague and Howard, well the Tories weren't winning then so getting them back isn't going to win them anything. This is why I question the wisdom of Cameron shifting to the right because a) He'd look ridiculous and b) There's no evidence to suggest that'll actually work. He doesn't need the core right-wingers, he needs to seize the centre ground. Whichever party manages that usually wins. Don't read too much into polling, they can change every month depending on peoples knee jerk reactions to things. For instance the Tories were doing ok poll wise until the budget this year and they've fallen off a cliff since. turbobloke said: Yes it could but I was giving people credit for realising that Labour are serially incompetent and can be relied on to nearly bankrupt the country while doing little of use to the average person. I wouldn't go that far because if the public really agreed with that they wouldn't have voted for Blair three times. The fact is during the Blair years (particularly at the start) nobody had any real complaints. Plenty of people experienced a better health service, their children went to upgraded schools and the economy grew for 8 years in a row. You can bang on about how the economy was already improving prior to '97 all you like but the fact is it happened on Labour's watch. The voters main concern about Labour had always been 'can they handle the economy?' and in the Foot/Kinnock years they offered nothing to suggest they could. By the end of the 90s you'd had the ERM fiasco, Labour had 're-branded' and Blair just came along at the right time. Co-inciding with a public wanting something more 'modern' to go with the whole 'cool Britannia' thing, old fashioned Tweed Tories were out and the 'Third Way' was king. Glasses were half full for a change, Conservatism was seen as 'boring' and something your parents subscribed to. It just fit in with the new world of Dot Com, texting and zinc kitchen worktops. The Tories recognised this and Cameron has tried to make Conservatism cool, oh dear. I think had Labour lost in 2005 then things may have been different. It almost seems you want them in for a while to spend money, but you want to get them out before they spend too much. If that makes sense. The Conservatives were still sticking with Howard at that point though, another old grey haired man which showed they just didn't get it. Maybe if Cameron was five years older and leader of the party then he might've been able to cash in on the Iraq war unpopularity and win it for the Tories then. turbobloke said: Almost, apparently Balls would borrow yet more and among other things would create more fake non-jobs. He's sort of subscribing to the Obama plan isn't he? In America term limits mean you do what you want for 8 years because the 9th is someone elses problem. We might reach a point where something has to give and some short term borrowing is the only option - so long as it's spent properly which is where the plan would really fall down.
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crankedup
Original Poster
9,237 posts
112 months
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powerstroke said: crankedup said: I still say Ed Balls would make a far better Chancellor than Osbourne. He has done very little during his two years apart from cause the economy to flat-line, see long term unemployment numbers rise, sat back with zero plans for a growth strategy. He is clearly out of his depth as Chancellor, Ed Balls couldn't do worse. We need a change of Chancellor, and fast. It may be tough for Dave to sack his dear old chum, but it has to be done.
Also bear in mind that the Tories continued to back Labours spending plans up to the end of 2007, so clearly they were also oblivious to the forthcoming financial meltdown. Hmm We do like a laugh...seriouly the only job Balls or his hatefull wife should get is replacing a vilage's missing idiot... Are you laughing due to the fact the Tories backed Labours spending plans up until end of 2007? I am still trying to work out how that could have been when now, in glorious hindsight, all was all Labours fault. Not only are Tories unelectable they seemed to be hopeless in opposition.
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crankedup
Original Poster
9,237 posts
112 months
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andymadmak said: crankedup said: I still say Ed Balls would make a far better Chancellor than Osbourne. He has done very little during his two years apart from cause the economy to flat-line, see long term unemployment numbers rise, Unemployment is falling is it not? crankedup said: sat back with zero plans for a growth strategy. And yet bbc website said: Good news from the labour market this week raised hopes that the economy might not be as weak as the official figures have suggested. Today's public finances figures continue the puzzle.
Tax revenues in the first three months of the fiscal year are running 2.5% higher than last year, which is not something you would usually see in a flat or shrinking economy. Crankedup said: He is clearly out of his depth as Chancellor, Ed Balls couldn't do worse. We need a change of Chancellor, and fast. It may be tough for Dave to sack his dear old chum, but it has to be done. and yet according to the IMF............ bbc website quoting the IMF said: The government should slow the pace of budget cuts next year if UK growth does not recover, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has said.
Its annual report on the UK says that tax rises and spending cuts introduced since spring 2010 have cut growth by a total of 2.5% over the past two years.
The IMF gave a summary of the report in May. Since then, the government has introduced growth measures, such as providing funding for lending.
The IMF praised these moves.
But it added that if growth did not pick up, other measures, such as temporary tax cuts and more means-testing of benefits, should be considered.
The IMF, which is headed by Christine Lagarde, who presented the report's summary findings in May, said: "If growth does not take off and unemployment fails to recede even after substantial further monetary stimulus and strong credit easing measures have been given time to work, the policy response should include a further slowing of fiscal consolidation." So far from being out of his depth, Mr Osbourne appears to have largely stablised the sinking ship that Brown/Balls and co left behind, and despite a Eurozone in crisis has achieved falling unemployment and increased tax revenues. He has even managed to introduce stimulus packages for the economy without having to borrow and increase debt in the way that Balls was advocating. I say, not a bad effort given the s  t pie he was left to digest. Crankedup said: Also bear in mind that the Tories continued to back Labours spending plans up to the end of 2007, so clearly they were also oblivious to the forthcoming financial meltdown  You are joking right? We had a decade of Brown saying he had ABOLISHED boom and bust economics. No political party stood a cat in hells chance of getting anyone to listen to them saying anything to the contrary until 2007, when it became too obvious for even the most hard of thinking to ignore the problems. Except of course that "Brilliant Economic Politician" Ed Balls, who still thinks we should have carried on borrowing and spending.............. 1) Not the long term (2 years +) unemployed numbers, they are still growing, albeit slowly. 2) The stats seem all over the place at the moment, as is often said, stats are easy to massage in favour of whichever colour tie the message is from. 3) The full report upon the state of U.K. economy is painting a far less rosy picture than your two selective quotes. The recent growth/development spending initiated are praiseworthy, albeit very belated and its over two years economists have been calling for growth plans. Better late than never. 4)The IMF have sent a strong signal to the Government regarding U.K. lack of growth. Government now need to develop/introduce growth plans ready for the next Budget. Ease off/slow pace of the cuts. 5) The Tories didn't even raise spending plans of the Labour Government as an issue, like I said lousy in opposition and unelectable. 6) I'm not sure Osbourne has stabilised our 'sinking ship'. Looks to me that the IMF have been giving Government the benefit of some doubt for the past 18 months and now signal for a change of direction (or at least a swerve) 7) I agree the Labour Government did 'Balls' it up.
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crankedup
Original Poster
9,237 posts
112 months
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tonker said: Can we clarify one thing - the only reason any incoming government didn't annihilate spending (especially on the State and handouts) was because these people have a vote - not because they cared about the spending or those being spent upon - it was utterly, utterly selfish and all about getting elected and re-elected - nothing more, nothing less. Agreed.
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