Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)
Discussion
Mortarboard said:
In my personal opinion, many of those who say "brexit was a success" are actually well aware of how economically damaging brexit has been, but it's a price they are willing to pay to not have anything to do with the EU any more.
Ironically, if folks just accept its been s
t so far, then moves could be made to make it a success. However, claiming the emperors new suit is very fine indeed just stymies that. Instead we get tinfoil hatted excuses about "civil servants not believing in it" and other such nonsense.
M.
All well and good but unfortunately there is a significant cadre of people who would seem to delight in its failure just to prove a point. Being able to point to things that still need fixing seems to be a source of delight. Its verging on Masochistic. The reality is that it is, and always would be at this point, a work in progress. Ironically, if folks just accept its been s
t so far, then moves could be made to make it a success. However, claiming the emperors new suit is very fine indeed just stymies that. Instead we get tinfoil hatted excuses about "civil servants not believing in it" and other such nonsense. M.
It is however a work in progess significantly delayed by 3 years of internal parliamentary bickering and attempted derailment followed by 2 years of global pandemic.
Beside that, the boat won't go very far when you have a significant number of oarsmen either not pulling their weight "on principle" or indeed rowing in reverse.
What is also ignored is that the EU and its path also have not changed (and no reason why they should if they don't want to) but you simply do not get the scale of the anti-EU vote if all was anywhere near roses in the garden. Brexit is a product of many things, the EU itself played a not insignificant part in it.
Meanwhile what we ought to be doing is working together to make our country better and stronger and anyone who is not doing that & still carping on about how much better things would be "if only" is now entirely part of the problem IMO.
Wombat3 said:
The reality is that it is, and always would be at this point, a work in progress.
Why do you think it's a work in progress?Serious question. All actions taken to date have made it worse, not better.
UKCE, REACH II, etc.
It's been 8 years and the border/customs still hasn't been addressed, ffs. The requirements fir that were known near as dammit on day one.
M.
Mortarboard said:
Wombat3 said:
The reality is that it is, and always would be at this point, a work in progress.
Why do you think it's a work in progress?Serious question. All actions taken to date have made it worse, not better.
UKCE, REACH II, etc.
It's been 8 years and the border/customs still hasn't been addressed, ffs. The requirements fir that were known near as dammit on day one.
M.
You obviously think differently ...which is convenient because you never liked the idea in the first place ( which is your right).
Then you've been making quite a few erroneous assumptions about my views.
Pre-2016, brexit was a stupid idea.
Post-2016, canceling brexit is a worse idea.
And failing to implement brexit properly is the worst of all. I've always said that there are huge opportunities with brexit. I've even listed how to use them (see first page of this thread if you're at all inclined).
At the moment, brexit isn't being implemented, bar token fig leaves to "look good". All the costs, none of the benefits.
M.
Pre-2016, brexit was a stupid idea.
Post-2016, canceling brexit is a worse idea.
And failing to implement brexit properly is the worst of all. I've always said that there are huge opportunities with brexit. I've even listed how to use them (see first page of this thread if you're at all inclined).
At the moment, brexit isn't being implemented, bar token fig leaves to "look good". All the costs, none of the benefits.
M.
Mortarboard said:
Then you've been making quite a few erroneous assumptions about my views.
Pre-2016, brexit was a stupid idea.
Post-2016, canceling brexit is a worse idea.
And failing to implement brexit properly is the worst of all. I've always said that there are huge opportunities with brexit. I've even listed how to use them (see first page of this thread if you're at all inclined).
At the moment, brexit isn't being implemented, bar token fig leaves to "look good". All the costs, none of the benefits.
M.
Hmm and do think that it's those that were in favour of Brexit that are blocking progress?Pre-2016, brexit was a stupid idea.
Post-2016, canceling brexit is a worse idea.
And failing to implement brexit properly is the worst of all. I've always said that there are huge opportunities with brexit. I've even listed how to use them (see first page of this thread if you're at all inclined).
At the moment, brexit isn't being implemented, bar token fig leaves to "look good". All the costs, none of the benefits.
M.
Meanwhile I think the upcoming EU elections will be interesting.
Wombat3 said:
Hmm and do think that it's those that were in favour of Brexit are blocking progress?
Meanwhile I think the upcoming EU elections will be interesting.
Plenty "in favour of brexit" in this thread think nothing needs to change in order to make brexit a success.Meanwhile I think the upcoming EU elections will be interesting.
Those measure that could be taken that I mentioned, do you think it's "remoaners" that are holding those back?
Boris "got brexit done", did some mandarin loose the implementation plan down the back of a sofa or something?
M.
Mortarboard said:
Plenty "in favour of brexit" in this thread think nothing needs to change in order to make brexit a success.
Those measure that could be taken that I mentioned, do you think it's "remoaners" that are holding those back?
Boris "got brexit done", did some mandarin loose the implementation plan down the back of a sofa or something?
M.
The implementation plan that Cameron put into place before the referendum?Those measure that could be taken that I mentioned, do you think it's "remoaners" that are holding those back?
Boris "got brexit done", did some mandarin loose the implementation plan down the back of a sofa or something?
M.
Wombat3 said:
Meanwhile what we ought to be doing is working together to make our country better and stronger and anyone who is not doing that & still carping on about how much better things would be "if only" is now entirely part of the problem IMO.
Fair enough, but that is why we have elections, rather than a government of national unity (as in WW2) as not everyone agrees what better and stronger looks like. Labour/ Conservative/ Reform all have different opinions about it, and even within a political party, there are different views. If Labour win the next election, and the Conservatives in opposition carp on about how much better things would be if only they had won instead - are they then part of the problem?wisbech said:
Wombat3 said:
Meanwhile what we ought to be doing is working together to make our country better and stronger and anyone who is not doing that & still carping on about how much better things would be "if only" is now entirely part of the problem IMO.
Fair enough, but that is why we have elections, rather than a government of national unity (as in WW2) as not everyone agrees what better and stronger looks like. Labour/ Conservative/ Reform all have different opinions about it, and even within a political party, there are different views. If Labour win the next election, and the Conservatives in opposition carp on about how much better things would be if only they had won instead - are they then part of the problem?Wombat3 said:
Mortarboard said:
In my personal opinion, many of those who say "brexit was a success" are actually well aware of how economically damaging brexit has been, but it's a price they are willing to pay to not have anything to do with the EU any more.
Ironically, if folks just accept its been st so far, then moves could be made to make it a success. However, claiming the emperors new suit is very fine indeed just stymies that. Instead we get tinfoil hatted excuses about "civil servants not believing in it" and other such nonsense.
M.
All well and good but unfortunately there is a significant cadre of people who would seem to delight in its failure just to prove a point. Being able to point to things that still need fixing seems to be a source of delight. Its verging on Masochistic. The reality is that it is, and always would be at this point, a work in progress. Ironically, if folks just accept its been s
t so far, then moves could be made to make it a success. However, claiming the emperors new suit is very fine indeed just stymies that. Instead we get tinfoil hatted excuses about "civil servants not believing in it" and other such nonsense. M.
It is however a work in progess significantly delayed by 3 years of internal parliamentary bickering and attempted derailment followed by 2 years of global pandemic.
Beside that, the boat won't go very far when you have a significant number of oarsmen either not pulling their weight "on principle" or indeed rowing in reverse.
What is also ignored is that the EU and its path also have not changed (and no reason why they should if they don't want to) but you simply do not get the scale of the anti-EU vote if all was anywhere near roses in the garden. Brexit is a product of many things, the EU itself played a not insignificant part in it.
Meanwhile what we ought to be doing is working together to make our country better and stronger and anyone who is not doing that & still carping on about how much better things would be "if only" is now entirely part of the problem IMO.
As for the work in progress. Do you see any work or progress. In fact do you see any one who can identify any policy which might reverse the economic cost?
All I see is brexiters blaming government for not using the benefits of brexit who then never reply when asked to identify the benefits.
I am retired now but my last project was to help my firm offset the effects of brexit by moving part of our business out of the UK.
Personally I would support a policy of joining EEA/EFTA.
Amateurish said:
Those in favour of Brexit will *never* admit they were wrong. It will always be the Cameron's fault, May, Covid, Ukraine, Remoaners, civil service etc etc
When Labour come into power, it will obviously be their fault.
Are you suggesting that those that manage the Country and World event interruptions are not responsible for the implementation and forward progress of U.K. Sovereign Nation? Well I never. When Labour come into power, it will obviously be their fault.
StevieBee said:
The difference is we have the opportunity to change course every four or five years. Brexit is permanent (for now) and provides the background of blame when any government's policies underperform or fail.
True, but what Brexit means will depend on the government of the day. A left wing govt may see it as opportunity to subsidise industry, increase labour market regulation, a right wing government reduce labour market regulation, remove farming subsidies. Both strategies possible due Brexit. Taking back control was the slogan, what to do with that control is part of the ongoing political process (so may well change course every 4-5 years)redrabbit29 said:
It's amazing reading this thread just how divisive Brexit has been. We're now 8 years on from the vote and still people are bickering back-and-forth about whether it's a good idea or not.
You still get people referring in passing to people being "typical remoaner" or "brexiteer" even when Brexit isn't part of the discussion.
This country has never felt so divided, unsettled and just unpleasant. I say that without even mentioning which way I voted, it's just an observation.
The reason is that nobody has truly won.You still get people referring in passing to people being "typical remoaner" or "brexiteer" even when Brexit isn't part of the discussion.
This country has never felt so divided, unsettled and just unpleasant. I say that without even mentioning which way I voted, it's just an observation.
The UK is, in reality, in no better or worse place than we were when part of the EU. All we've really done is made life a bit more difficult for ourselves and a bit more expensive.
We now know that all those 'oven-ready' trade deals and improved border controls and other benefits touted by the leave side are largely undeliverable. So, all Brexiteers have to be content with is the freedom from non-existent threats and the idea of 'Sovereignty' with many being unable define what exactly that means.
On the other side you have those who wanted to remain, embittered that they are having to endure a scenario that they knew would be the case. So all they have is the ability to say 'told you'.
It will take at least a generation for this division to pass, maybe two, by which time, unless by some economic miracle the UK enjoys boundless and ample growth as a direct result of our independence or the EU implodes (both possible), we will most likely be part of the EU once again.
StevieBee said:
The reason is that nobody has truly won.
The UK is, in reality, in no better or worse place than we were when part of the EU. All we've really done is made life a bit more difficult for ourselves and a bit more expensive.
We now know that all those 'oven-ready' trade deals and improved border controls and other benefits touted by the leave side are largely undeliverable. So, all Brexiteers have to be content with is the freedom from non-existent threats and the idea of 'Sovereignty' with many being unable define what exactly that means.
On the other side you have those who wanted to remain, embittered that they are having to endure a scenario that they knew would be the case. So all they have is the ability to say 'told you'.
It will take at least a generation for this division to pass, maybe two, by which time, unless by some economic miracle the UK enjoys boundless and ample growth as a direct result of our independence or the EU implodes (both possible), we will most likely be part of the EU once again.
What a load of remain bias claptrap!The UK is, in reality, in no better or worse place than we were when part of the EU. All we've really done is made life a bit more difficult for ourselves and a bit more expensive.
We now know that all those 'oven-ready' trade deals and improved border controls and other benefits touted by the leave side are largely undeliverable. So, all Brexiteers have to be content with is the freedom from non-existent threats and the idea of 'Sovereignty' with many being unable define what exactly that means.
On the other side you have those who wanted to remain, embittered that they are having to endure a scenario that they knew would be the case. So all they have is the ability to say 'told you'.
It will take at least a generation for this division to pass, maybe two, by which time, unless by some economic miracle the UK enjoys boundless and ample growth as a direct result of our independence or the EU implodes (both possible), we will most likely be part of the EU once again.
Brexit has freed the UK from the EU political project. That is a huge monetary saving over the long term. The EU wanted the London financial center under their control and they would have bled the benefits the UK gets from this to further finance their political project.
We will never rejoin the EU because it would mean giving up too much power and control to the EU.
The remainers incorrectly said that remaining was the status quo situation. This was a lie and was never going to be the case. A vote to remain would have been taken as support for the EU project and over time more and more control would have been given up by UK politicians or taken by the EU.
Funny, could have sworn that Boris & Frost disagree with you, and they negotiated it.
As for freeing the uk from the clutches of the "EU project", one of the first actions taken was to replicate (not replace) two function that are done in the EU, reach and ce.
So rather than freeing the uk, brexit gave the uk twice as much red tape.
Probably best to look further than the daily mail for "news and analysis"
M
As for freeing the uk from the clutches of the "EU project", one of the first actions taken was to replicate (not replace) two function that are done in the EU, reach and ce.
So rather than freeing the uk, brexit gave the uk twice as much red tape.
Probably best to look further than the daily mail for "news and analysis"
M
Ashfordian said:
What a load of remain bias claptrap!
Brexit has freed the UK from the EU political project. That is a huge monetary saving over the long term. The EU wanted the London financial center under their control and they would have bled the benefits the UK gets from this to further finance their political project.
We will never rejoin the EU because it would mean giving up too much power and control to the EU.
The remainers incorrectly said that remaining was the status quo situation. This was a lie and was never going to be the case. A vote to remain would have been taken as support for the EU project and over time more and more control would have been given up by UK politicians or taken by the EU.
What a load of brexit claptrap!Brexit has freed the UK from the EU political project. That is a huge monetary saving over the long term. The EU wanted the London financial center under their control and they would have bled the benefits the UK gets from this to further finance their political project.
We will never rejoin the EU because it would mean giving up too much power and control to the EU.
The remainers incorrectly said that remaining was the status quo situation. This was a lie and was never going to be the case. A vote to remain would have been taken as support for the EU project and over time more and more control would have been given up by UK politicians or taken by the EU.
While the UK saves some fees, we now have lots of new paper work on trade, the cost of UKCE which I am sure no one uses, extra CAA staff to add international regulation to a UK handbook which very few use, lots of new customs officers, and next month lots of health and veterinary checks, lots more staff at the HO issuing visas, and I am sure soon a UK reach while still allowing EU reach. I rather suspect and savings are vastly out weighted by the addition costs.
As for FS. The one time the eurozone tried to move business from London the ECJ stopped it. That protection is now lost. I posted links above about the latest attempts by the EU to move euro derivative clearing to the EU. Nothing to stop them now.
All the polls show a vast majority regard brexit as a failure. So just accept you are convincing very few.
Mrr T said:
What a load of brexit claptrap!
While the UK saves some fees, we now have lots of new paper work on trade, the cost of UKCE which I am sure no one uses, extra CAA staff to add international regulation to a UK handbook which very few use, lots of new customs officers, and next month lots of health and veterinary checks, lots more staff at the HO issuing visas, and I am sure soon a UK reach while still allowing EU reach. I rather suspect and savings are vastly out weighted by the addition costs.
As for FS. The one time the eurozone tried to move business from London the ECJ stopped it. That protection is now lost. I posted links above about the latest attempts by the EU to move euro derivative clearing to the EU. Nothing to stop them now.
All the polls show a vast majority regard brexit as a failure. So just accept you are convincing very few.
You came up with this crap in 2016, along with the UK turning in to a no fly zone and being unable to manage our nuclear industry.While the UK saves some fees, we now have lots of new paper work on trade, the cost of UKCE which I am sure no one uses, extra CAA staff to add international regulation to a UK handbook which very few use, lots of new customs officers, and next month lots of health and veterinary checks, lots more staff at the HO issuing visas, and I am sure soon a UK reach while still allowing EU reach. I rather suspect and savings are vastly out weighted by the addition costs.
As for FS. The one time the eurozone tried to move business from London the ECJ stopped it. That protection is now lost. I posted links above about the latest attempts by the EU to move euro derivative clearing to the EU. Nothing to stop them now.
All the polls show a vast majority regard brexit as a failure. So just accept you are convincing very few.
EU countries are turning far more extreme as the economics of a protectionist structure bites, we are well out of that impending mess.
732NM said:
Mrr T said:
What a load of brexit claptrap!
While the UK saves some fees, we now have lots of new paper work on trade, the cost of UKCE which I am sure no one uses, extra CAA staff to add international regulation to a UK handbook which very few use, lots of new customs officers, and next month lots of health and veterinary checks, lots more staff at the HO issuing visas, and I am sure soon a UK reach while still allowing EU reach. I rather suspect and savings are vastly out weighted by the addition costs.
As for FS. The one time the eurozone tried to move business from London the ECJ stopped it. That protection is now lost. I posted links above about the latest attempts by the EU to move euro derivative clearing to the EU. Nothing to stop them now.
All the polls show a vast majority regard brexit as a failure. So just accept you are convincing very few.
You came up with this crap in 2016, along with the UK turning in to a no fly zone and being unable to manage our nuclear industry.While the UK saves some fees, we now have lots of new paper work on trade, the cost of UKCE which I am sure no one uses, extra CAA staff to add international regulation to a UK handbook which very few use, lots of new customs officers, and next month lots of health and veterinary checks, lots more staff at the HO issuing visas, and I am sure soon a UK reach while still allowing EU reach. I rather suspect and savings are vastly out weighted by the addition costs.
As for FS. The one time the eurozone tried to move business from London the ECJ stopped it. That protection is now lost. I posted links above about the latest attempts by the EU to move euro derivative clearing to the EU. Nothing to stop them now.
All the polls show a vast majority regard brexit as a failure. So just accept you are convincing very few.
EU countries are turning far more extreme as the economics of a protectionist structure bites, we are well out of that impending mess.
As it was we left with a deal which included recognition. One consequence of the mess was EASA allowed firms outside the EU to apply to be registered. Many aerospace firms in the UK took up the offer and are now regulated by EASA rather than the CAA.
It must be wonderful to enjoy the settled politics of the UK.
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