Russia Invades Ukraine. Volume 4

Russia Invades Ukraine. Volume 4

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rdjohn

6,185 posts

195 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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A month, or so, ago the BBC was following up on a guy who was a Ukrainian teacher / student when Russia invaded. He is now a battle hardened officer, complete with facial scars, leading a platoon of battle-hardened fellow conscripts. He was about 21.

Throwing guys in at the deep-end and telling them to swim for their life seems to work for Ukraine, so why not for Russia? I accept that the Ukrainians are likely to be even more motivated, but kill, or be killed, must have a strong effect on someone on the frontline, so absolute numbers must count for something.

HM-2

12,467 posts

169 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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rdjohn said:
Throwing guys in at the deep-end and telling them to swim for their life seems to work for Ukraine, so why not for Russia?
Ukraine has a highly seasoned and NATO trained officer's corps with 8 years of combat experience in the Donbas. Russia does not.

TonyRPH

12,973 posts

168 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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HM-2 said:
rdjohn said:
Throwing guys in at the deep-end and telling them to swim for their life seems to work for Ukraine, so why not for Russia?
Ukraine has a highly seasoned and NATO trained officer's corps with 8 years of combat experience in the Donbas. Russia does not.
It probably also has something to do with being well equipped with modern, effective weaponry - I'm sure that must be motivational as well (along with the desire to defend their country).




sisu

2,582 posts

173 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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HM-2 said:
rdjohn said:
Throwing guys in at the deep-end and telling them to swim for their life seems to work for Ukraine, so why not for Russia?
Ukraine has a highly seasoned and NATO trained officer's corps with 8 years of combat experience in the Donbas. Russia does not.
Tank crews landed this week in Britain and are being trained on the Challenger 2 as we speak.

One would assume that they would use seasoned Tank crews with the new kit and if you are a newbie you step onto a T-80 for a few months before you get the new company car.

sisu

2,582 posts

173 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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A recent Perun video for your sunday arvo.

Tango13

8,443 posts

176 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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TonyRPH said:
HM-2 said:
rdjohn said:
Throwing guys in at the deep-end and telling them to swim for their life seems to work for Ukraine, so why not for Russia?
Ukraine has a highly seasoned and NATO trained officer's corps with 8 years of combat experience in the Donbas. Russia does not.
It probably also has something to do with being well equipped with modern, effective weaponry - I'm sure that must be motivational as well (along with the desire to defend their country).
A large percentage of the Ukrainian conscripts have also benefited from a 5 or 8 week crash course in infantry fighting at the hands of the British army

Edited by Tango13 on Sunday 29th January 15:52

stevesingo

4,858 posts

222 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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TonyRPH said:
HM-2 said:
rdjohn said:
Throwing guys in at the deep-end and telling them to swim for their life seems to work for Ukraine, so why not for Russia?
Ukraine has a highly seasoned and NATO trained officer's corps with 8 years of combat experience in the Donbas. Russia does not.
It probably also has something to do with being well equipped with modern, effective weaponry - I'm sure that must be motivational as well (along with the desire to defend their country).
More likely that Ukrainian Junior Officers are permitted some freedom of action/mission command within a NATO style Maneuverist doctrine. Quite unlike what the Russian's practice which seems to involve some Colonel or above (who only got there by butt crack snorkeling and corruption, not competence) making st decisions and giving orders for subordinates to carry out.

BikeBikeBIke

8,005 posts

115 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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sisu said:
One would assume that they would use seasoned Tank crews with the new kit and if you are a newbie you step onto a T-80 for a few months before you get the new company car.
I heard on a podcast that typically armies give the new kit to new troops to avoid training twice, much to the consternation of the established old hands.

Maybe that's not what will happen here but it was an interesting insight. (If I've remembered it right!)

Ridgemont

6,583 posts

131 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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stevesingo said:
TonyRPH said:
HM-2 said:
rdjohn said:
Throwing guys in at the deep-end and telling them to swim for their life seems to work for Ukraine, so why not for Russia?
Ukraine has a highly seasoned and NATO trained officer's corps with 8 years of combat experience in the Donbas. Russia does not.
It probably also has something to do with being well equipped with modern, effective weaponry - I'm sure that must be motivational as well (along with the desire to defend their country).
More likely that Ukrainian Junior Officers are permitted some freedom of action/mission command within a NATO style Maneuverist doctrine. Quite unlike what the Russian's practice which seems to involve some Colonel or above (who only got there by butt crack snorkeling and corruption, not competence) making st decisions and giving orders for subordinates to carry out.
I would be very surprised if the 75k figure holds true for the Russians. From the info earlier on in the ‘special operation’ Russian standard practice is to outfit very basic kit and then apply the principle of forage/steal what you need.

The problem for the Russians is that while the Ukrainians may be developing a battle hardened core of capable soldiers, the Russian equivalent probably has a relatively high chance of not getting to the point of being battle hardened due to the high mortality involved in their human wave tactics. I seem to recall reading (from a non Ukraine source) that the ratio of Ukraine kills to losses is so ludicrously one sided that you assume that the numbers in the next Russia recruitment wave factor in attritional numbers that no western army would ever accept.

You have to wonder at what point Russian standard operating practice starts to look at the pool of available meat and realise unlike in centuries past it isn’t effectively limitless.
And at what point does the wider Russian populace start noticing a lack of progress combined with an ever increasing volume of unmarked coffins.

TopTrump

3,226 posts

174 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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Pupp said:
It's all so delicately balanced to escalate globally. Won't take much

spookly

4,020 posts

95 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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TopTrump said:
Pupp said:
It's all so delicately balanced to escalate globally. Won't take much
Really?

Who would be on russia's side apart from NK and Iran?

TopTrump

3,226 posts

174 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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spookly said:
Really?

Who would be on russia's side apart from NK and Iran?
South Africa, Hungary, India China and quite a few more.

FourWheelDrift

88,541 posts

284 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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With Russia busy Iran have no friends to help out if someone has a go at forcing the Ayatollahs out.

S600BSB

4,638 posts

106 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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I don't know anything about how long it takes to transport tanks and train their crews to operate them, but will the new Western armour get to Ukraine in time to support the response to Russia's spring offensive? Presumably Putin will be encouraging his generals to accelerate plans as far as possible etc.

TopTrump

3,226 posts

174 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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S600BSB said:
I don't know anything about how long it takes to transport tanks and train their crews to operate them, but will the new Western armour get to Ukraine in time to support the response to Russia's spring offensive? Presumably Putin will be encouraging his generals to accelerate plans as far as possible etc.
Thing is we are only told what they tell us. I'd imagine by the time it hits mainstream media, it's done
smile

eyebeebe

2,984 posts

233 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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TopTrump said:
spookly said:
Really?

Who would be on russia's side apart from NK and Iran?
South Africa, Hungary, India China and quite a few more.
Is that the same Hungary that has been in NATO since 1999 laugh

South Africa might be playing silly buggers a bit at the moment, but no way would they get involved. India are voting against Russia at the UN now and are surely regretting their past purchases of Russian arms having seen how they've performed. and finally China, on what planet is it in their interest to side with a waning power whose land and resources they have their eye on?

oddman

2,331 posts

252 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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FourWheelDrift said:
With Russia busy Iran have no friends to help out if someone has a go at forcing the Ayatollahs out.
I wondered if the recent (entirely justified) protest in Iran may have had a nudge from CIA/Mossad

Ridgemont

6,583 posts

131 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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TopTrump said:
Pupp said:
It's all so delicately balanced to escalate globally. Won't take much
Ignoring the lack of any evidence to suggest that there is an alliance of Russian allies willing to kick off a global war (there isn’t), I would be interested to know what you think would be the trigger?

Talksteer

4,870 posts

233 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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rdjohn said:
A month, or so, ago the BBC was following up on a guy who was a Ukrainian teacher / student when Russia invaded. He is now a battle hardened officer, complete with facial scars, leading a platoon of battle-hardened fellow conscripts. He was about 21.

Throwing guys in at the deep-end and telling them to swim for their life seems to work for Ukraine, so why not for Russia? I accept that the Ukrainians are likely to be even more motivated, but kill, or be killed, must have a strong effect on someone on the frontline, so absolute numbers must count for something.
You have most of the answers to your question in your own post. It's all about the difference in motivation and environment.

The Ukrainians are fighting for their homeland in their homeland. This isn't Vegas, what happens in Ukraine stays in Ukraine, cowardice and bravery will stay with you, not least if you are fighting in a unit with your neighbours.

Fundamentally the motivation for the soldiers is one of fitting in, group cohesion, if your comrades are brave, selfless and diligent then in all likelihood the desire of young men to fit in will make them behave likewise.

Thus the soldiers who survive being brave, despite being green are likely to naturally select those who are proficient.

If we look at the Russian side, there are some professional units who did quite well. The only issue is that these units were deployed until they had suffered heavy attrition and they deployed their training units so these units haven't been requipped. Without proper R&R these units can reach the state of fatigue when that group reinforcement breaks down, those battle hardened men no longer need to prove anything. Ideally you would shuffle them around and have the seasoned soldiers train/motivate the new men

However the reports coming back from most Russian units are that moral and culture is pretty poor. They have issues with soldier welfare and also with reliable communication, hence the multiple captures of villages. In this environment you have examples of soldiers, faking engagements, claiming to have advanced to places they haven't and killed vast numbers of Ukrainians.

I'm this environment the soldiers who have survived are likely to be the ones who, simulated assaults, abandoned their kit, stole their kit off other units, fell back while the unit they were meant to support got chewed up etc. etc.

TopTrump

3,226 posts

174 months

Sunday 29th January 2023
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Ridgemont said:
Ignoring the lack of any evidence to suggest that there is an alliance of Russian allies willing to kick off a global war (there isn’t), I would be interested to know what you think would be the trigger?
If it becomes a religious war is one. Quite possible, especially with Iran