Israel invaded
Discussion
The whole point was to ensure that gaza remained a mess but one that detracted from fatah support in the west bank to ensure that there would be no unified palestinian voice calling for a palestinian state that israel would have to deal with. The last thing Israel would have wanted was a prosperous gaza after they left as that would hugely increase international pressure on them in the west bank. Keeping Hamas in place with all that entailed was rather useful for the Israelis who until Oct7 (especially after Iron Dome) believed that they were largely insulated from any consequences of their actions with just the occasional 'moving of the grass' required to keep them in check while they could fulfill their function of undermining fatah.
z4RRSchris said:
restrictions on what crossed the border - not just arms, pasta was banned for a while.
who goes in and out - no airport, no sea port, exports banned
even taxes were collected by israel on Hamas's behalf, then withheld.
its an open air prison.
In effect, but it was resolvable. Hamas simply needed to stop digging tunnels, stop lobbing rockets over the border, stop importing weapons, stop organising terrorist nonsense with Iran and then ask nicely. With a track record of being not-dwho goes in and out - no airport, no sea port, exports banned
even taxes were collected by israel on Hamas's behalf, then withheld.
its an open air prison.
heads and generally behaving like a normal country towards its neighbours there would have been no need for any of that and it would not have been sustainable due to external pressure, regardless of the level of ideological opposition to Gaza as a country within Israel. Hamas knows the practical reality of the geography in Gaza; they have a bigger neighbour that can stop them doing stuff. This is a normal framework that countries exist in all over the world. What those countries do, is studiously avoid stating that their aim is to destroy the bigger neighbour and then lob rockets at it.
As it was, October the 7th showed that the approach was overly lenient and now we are seeing the obvious result.
paulrockliffe said:
z4RRSchris said:
restrictions on what crossed the border - not just arms, pasta was banned for a while.
who goes in and out - no airport, no sea port, exports banned
even taxes were collected by israel on Hamas's behalf, then withheld.
its an open air prison.
In effect, but it was resolvable. Hamas simply needed to stop digging tunnels, stop lobbing rockets over the border, stop importing weapons, stop organising terrorist nonsense with Iran and then ask nicely. With a track record of being not-dwho goes in and out - no airport, no sea port, exports banned
even taxes were collected by israel on Hamas's behalf, then withheld.
its an open air prison.
heads and generally behaving like a normal country towards its neighbours there would have been no need for any of that and it would not have been sustainable due to external pressure, regardless of the level of ideological opposition to Gaza as a country within Israel. Hamas knows the practical reality of the geography in Gaza; they have a bigger neighbour that can stop them doing stuff. This is a normal framework that countries exist in all over the world. What those countries do, is studiously avoid stating that their aim is to destroy the bigger neighbour and then lob rockets at it.
As it was, October the 7th showed that the approach was overly lenient and now we are seeing the obvious result.
Must admit I really got a laugh at the ''ask nicely'' suggestion.
So, what's your suggestion/plan for the Palestinians in the West Bank?
Edited by JJJ. on Tuesday 16th April 11:05
said:
In effect, but it was resolvable. Hamas simply needed to stop digging tunnels, stop lobbing rockets over the border, stop importing weapons, stop organising terrorist nonsense with Iran and then ask nicely. With a track record of being not-dheads and generally behaving like a normal country towards its neighbours there would have been no need for any of that and it would not have been sustainable due to external pressure, regardless of the level of ideological opposition to Gaza as a country within Israel.
Hamas knows the practical reality of the geography in Gaza; they have a bigger neighbour that can stop them doing stuff. This is a normal framework that countries exist in all over the world. What those countries do, is studiously avoid stating that their aim is to destroy the bigger neighbour and then lob rockets at it.
As it was, October the 7th showed that the approach was overly lenient and now we are seeing the obvious result.
You seem to have it all worked out! Pity somebody, well Hamas didn't listen to your views prior to Oct 7.
Must admit I really got a laugh at the ''ask nicely'' suggestion.
So, what's your plan for the West Bank?
Strange tone of post.Hamas knows the practical reality of the geography in Gaza; they have a bigger neighbour that can stop them doing stuff. This is a normal framework that countries exist in all over the world. What those countries do, is studiously avoid stating that their aim is to destroy the bigger neighbour and then lob rockets at it.
As it was, October the 7th showed that the approach was overly lenient and now we are seeing the obvious result.
You seem to have it all worked out! Pity somebody, well Hamas didn't listen to your views prior to Oct 7.
Must admit I really got a laugh at the ''ask nicely'' suggestion.
So, what's your plan for the West Bank?
You seem to be agreeing that Hamas acted in this way and ignored reason because they are religious nutters but seem to be annoyed about it at the same time?
paulrockliffe said:
Hamas simply needed to stop digging tunnels, stop lobbing rockets over the border, stop importing weapons, stop organising terrorist nonsense with Iran and then ask nicely.As it was, October the 7th showed that the approach was overly lenient and now we are seeing the obvious result.
It's not just Hamas but also groups like Palestinian Islamic Jihad. They are basically in competition to be the bigger [in Team America terminology] d1ck.https://www.timesofisrael.com/mashaal-hamas-well-a...
Asked where Palestinian civilians should go if Israel invades, Mashal said “Allah will protect them.”
At least they had a contingency plan sorted ahead of the attack.
how about just return to the previous borders, give the palestinians their own state, stop settlements and give them back the land, stop killing them all the time and let them live like normal humans.
then maybe they wont lob rockets over the fence
right now, its like asking prisioners to play nice and youll give them an extra 30 min break a day. they are still in prison, its still st.
then maybe they wont lob rockets over the fence
right now, its like asking prisioners to play nice and youll give them an extra 30 min break a day. they are still in prison, its still s
t. z4RRSchris said:
how about just return to the previous borders, give the palestinians their own state, stop settlements and give them back the land, stop killing them all the time and let them live like normal humans.
then maybe they wont lob rockets over the fence
For that to happen there has to be trust on both sides, and right now that's not a flower that's growing in anybody's garden. then maybe they wont lob rockets over the fence
Moreover, who is going to ensure that both sides keep to any such agreement? Israel is likely to be the more accountable, and with Netanyahu out of the way one could see a way to building a consensus within Israel for such a solution. But on the Palestinian side? Who is there?
And therein lies the problem because absent someone to speak for the Palestinians that can offer a reasonable expectation of being able to keep to any deal, why would the Israelis even begin to engage with it, especially if the fear/risk/expectation on the Israeli side is that the Palestinians will just take any ceasefire as a lull during which they will be planning and amassing weapons for their next Oct 7th.
Who speaks for Palestinians? Fatah? Hamas? Iran?
paulrockliffe said:
In effect, but it was resolvable. Hamas simply needed to stop digging tunnels, stop lobbing rockets over the border, stop importing weapons, stop organising terrorist nonsense with Iran and then ask nicely. With a track record of being not-dheads and generally behaving like a normal country towards its neighbours there would have been no need for any of that and it would not have been sustainable due to external pressure, regardless of the level of ideological opposition to Gaza as a country within Israel.
Hamas knows the practical reality of the geography in Gaza; they have a bigger neighbour that can stop them doing stuff. This is a normal framework that countries exist in all over the world. What those countries do, is studiously avoid stating that their aim is to destroy the bigger neighbour and then lob rockets at it.
As it was, October the 7th showed that the approach was overly lenient and now we are seeing the obvious result.
That’s certainly one take…heads and generally behaving like a normal country towards its neighbours there would have been no need for any of that and it would not have been sustainable due to external pressure, regardless of the level of ideological opposition to Gaza as a country within Israel. Hamas knows the practical reality of the geography in Gaza; they have a bigger neighbour that can stop them doing stuff. This is a normal framework that countries exist in all over the world. What those countries do, is studiously avoid stating that their aim is to destroy the bigger neighbour and then lob rockets at it.
As it was, October the 7th showed that the approach was overly lenient and now we are seeing the obvious result.
''Majority in U.S. Now Disapprove of Israeli Action in Gaza''
Approval has dropped from 50% to 36% since November according to a Gallup poll, March '24. I can only see this as a positive, just hoping the Biden administration take onboard such polls.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disap...
Approval has dropped from 50% to 36% since November according to a Gallup poll, March '24. I can only see this as a positive, just hoping the Biden administration take onboard such polls.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disap...
andymadmak said:
Who speaks for Palestinians? Fatah? Hamas? Iran?
It doesn't exactly help when Israel murders any and all of their leaders on a whim.Fundamentally it's absurd for Israel to seek to continue its apartheid policies and 24/7 aggression. It's equally absurd that genuine modern secular democracies like UK, USA and France are allied with complete opposites in the Middle East. When our "mates" are the likes of Saudi Arabia and Israel there are serious questions to be asked around how we're choosing our friends.
Panamax said:
It doesn't exactly help when Israel murders any and all of their leaders on a whim.
Fundamentally it's absurd for Israel to seek to continue its apartheid policies and 24/7 aggression. It's equally absurd that genuine modern secular democracies like UK, USA and France are allied with complete opposites in the Middle East. When our "mates" are the likes of Saudi Arabia and Israel there are serious questions to be asked around how we're choosing our friends.
On a whim?Fundamentally it's absurd for Israel to seek to continue its apartheid policies and 24/7 aggression. It's equally absurd that genuine modern secular democracies like UK, USA and France are allied with complete opposites in the Middle East. When our "mates" are the likes of Saudi Arabia and Israel there are serious questions to be asked around how we're choosing our friends.
z4RRSchris said:
how about just return to the previous borders, give the palestinians their own state, stop settlements and give them back the land, stop killing them all the time and let them live like normal humans.
then maybe they wont lob rockets over the fence
right now, its like asking prisioners to play nice and youll give them an extra 30 min break a day. they are still in prison, its still st.
I would agree with this to an extent, only to suggest that the peace keeping force should definitely NOT be the UN. UNIFIL are simply observers on the Lebanese border, as are the forces on the Golan & in Sinai. A much more robust coalition involving Saudi, UAE & others would be far more effective. then maybe they wont lob rockets over the fence
right now, its like asking prisioners to play nice and youll give them an extra 30 min break a day. they are still in prison, its still s
t. Rebuilding Gaza will take time - building any sort of trust which can lead to statehood will take at least a generation.
Sadly we have already gone through this with Arafat/Rabin, so I'm not holding my breath.
Qatar re-evaluating its role as mediator after lack of progress towards a ceasefire and accuses some parties of disingenuous role in talks.
Joining the dots between a US statement and a snippet from the Qatari statement it appears Hamas want a wider war in the area and are sacrificing the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip to that end.
Joining the dots between a US statement and a snippet from the Qatari statement it appears Hamas want a wider war in the area and are sacrificing the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip to that end.
z4RRSchris said:
how about just return to the previous borders, give the palestinians their own state, stop settlements and give them back the land, stop killing them all the time and let them live like normal humans.
then maybe they wont lob rockets over the fence
right now, its like asking prisioners to play nice and youll give them an extra 30 min break a day. they are still in prison, its still st.
I think that solution is what every sane person would like to see. The uncomfortable fact is that Hamas and Netanyahu are not sane and that the World stands by, whilst a genocide is happening.then maybe they wont lob rockets over the fence
right now, its like asking prisioners to play nice and youll give them an extra 30 min break a day. they are still in prison, its still s
t. 6th Gear said:
loafer123 said:
Zeeky said:
Sickening to see the Union Flag alongside the Israeli flag. Undermining our own security to support a rogue State perpetrating such violence against civilian.
Grow up.Comes across as the petulant ramblings of a teenager because they've seen Gaza is the latest trendy cause.
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