Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?

Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?

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Discussion

2xChevrons

3,232 posts

81 months

Saturday 27th April
quotequote all
crankedup5 said:
You need to do some reading regarding the mental health state of the Nation, especially amongst young people.

eta the BBC program also said that mental health issues is ‘the new bad back syndrome’.
Horrible for genuine sufferers and an easy ‘I can’t work’ excuse for people intending to live off benefits.

Edited by crankedup5 on Saturday 27th April 19:57
Can I provide some other perspective and analysis, courtesy of that well-known socialist woke rag that caters to layabouts and idlers, The Financial Times?

The Financial Times said:
Sunak’s suggestion that young adults are over pathologising everyday anxieties appears ill-evidenced. Louise Murphy, an economist at the Resolution Foundation think-tank, notes most claims by 16- to 25-year-olds relate to ADHD, autism and learning disabilities.

Helen Barnard, director of policy at the Trussell Trust, said many older people had both physical and mental health conditions — and were not off work because they were depressed but “because being ill, off work, struggling to get support and facing financial hardship is depressing”.

Analysts cite worsening health among the population — linked to longer NHS waiting lists — as one of several factors that could be driving the increase.

The cost of living crisis could also prompt people who previously felt claiming benefits was not worth the hassle to apply, noted Tom Waters, associate director at the IFS. It was also “plausible but far from confirmed” that tougher conditionality for jobless benefits was prompting people to claim more generous incapacity benefits instead if they were able to.
The whole article lays out that there is scant evidence of the 'sick note culture', given how few sick days UK workers take on average, that sick notes are being issued at about the same rate they were in 2019 and only about a tenth of them are for mental health reasons. The rise in disability claims likely has as much to do with incomes not keeping up with living costs. And the vicious circle of a society that does a number on mental health while refusing to do anything useful or productive in helping or improving peoples' mental health.

Evidence that this surge in disability claimants is holding back productivity or denying the workforce labour is, at best, scant and contradictory. ONS data is contradictory, showing strong workforce participation and a large 'tail' of illness/disability in working-age adults after the pandemic. Of course, that 850,000 number of adults who say that long-term illness is keeping them from work could have something to do with the course steered during the pandemic, which was almost laser-guided to do a number on both physical and mental health by cyclically forcing people into work to get infections and then cooping them up at home to get depression and anxiety.

I don't want to run afoul of copyright/copy+paste rules, but the final paras are also very pertinent:

The Financial Times said:
In November, the OBR said that plans announced in the Autumn Statement to tighten incapacity benefits would save the Treasury £1bn a year but boost employment by just 10,000 — while an expansion of therapy and job support could bring 40,000 people into work.

The government is set to publish details of a stricter regime for disability benefits. It is also rolling out local pilot schemes that integrate job and health support, branded “WorkWell”. But an existing job support scheme, targeted at disabled people, is being scrapped. 

Barnard said there was some investment in the type of health and job support that was needed but that ministers were pushing a “really damaging” narrative, implying that people were “showing up as long-term sick . . . because they’re not making the effort”.

The Trussell Trust had seen more disabled people using its food banks because they were unable to afford essentials — even the bus fare to attend hospital appointments, she said, adding: “We need a social security system that allows you to get better.”[/b]



Carl_VivaEspana

12,257 posts

263 months

Saturday 27th April
quotequote all
the answer is to spend and tax more, whomever thought up the answer to all of humanities problems is a total genius.

on the flip side to that you have higher rate tax payers who probably don't want to pay for it.


crankedup5

9,692 posts

36 months

Saturday 27th April
quotequote all
2xChevrons said:
crankedup5 said:
You need to do some reading regarding the mental health state of the Nation, especially amongst young people.

eta the BBC program also said that mental health issues is ‘the new bad back syndrome’.
Horrible for genuine sufferers and an easy ‘I can’t work’ excuse for people intending to live off benefits.

Edited by crankedup5 on Saturday 27th April 19:57
Can I provide some other perspective and analysis, courtesy of that well-known socialist woke rag that caters to layabouts and idlers, The Financial Times?

The Financial Times said:
Sunak’s suggestion that young adults are over pathologising everyday anxieties appears ill-evidenced. Louise Murphy, an economist at the Resolution Foundation think-tank, notes most claims by 16- to 25-year-olds relate to ADHD, autism and learning disabilities.

Helen Barnard, director of policy at the Trussell Trust, said many older people had both physical and mental health conditions — and were not off work because they were depressed but “because being ill, off work, struggling to get support and facing financial hardship is depressing”.

Analysts cite worsening health among the population — linked to longer NHS waiting lists — as one of several factors that could be driving the increase.

The cost of living crisis could also prompt people who previously felt claiming benefits was not worth the hassle to apply, noted Tom Waters, associate director at the IFS. It was also “plausible but far from confirmed” that tougher conditionality for jobless benefits was prompting people to claim more generous incapacity benefits instead if they were able to.
The whole article lays out that there is scant evidence of the 'sick note culture', given how few sick days UK workers take on average, that sick notes are being issued at about the same rate they were in 2019 and only about a tenth of them are for mental health reasons. The rise in disability claims likely has as much to do with incomes not keeping up with living costs. And the vicious circle of a society that does a number on mental health while refusing to do anything useful or productive in helping or improving peoples' mental health.

Evidence that this surge in disability claimants is holding back productivity or denying the workforce labour is, at best, scant and contradictory. ONS data is contradictory, showing strong workforce participation and a large 'tail' of illness/disability in working-age adults after the pandemic. Of course, that 850,000 number of adults who say that long-term illness is keeping them from work could have something to do with the course steered during the pandemic, which was almost laser-guided to do a number on both physical and mental health by cyclically forcing people into work to get infections and then cooping them up at home to get depression and anxiety.

I don't want to run afoul of copyright/copy+paste rules, but the final paras are also very pertinent:

The Financial Times said:
In November, the OBR said that plans announced in the Autumn Statement to tighten incapacity benefits would save the Treasury £1bn a year but boost employment by just 10,000 — while an expansion of therapy and job support could bring 40,000 people into work.

The government is set to publish details of a stricter regime for disability benefits. It is also rolling out local pilot schemes that integrate job and health support, branded “WorkWell”. But an existing job support scheme, targeted at disabled people, is being scrapped. 

Barnard said there was some investment in the type of health and job support that was needed but that ministers were pushing a “really damaging” narrative, implying that people were “showing up as long-term sick?.?.?.?because they’re not making the effort”.

The Trussell Trust had seen more disabled people using its food banks because they were unable to afford essentials — even the bus fare to attend hospital appointments, she said, adding: “We need a social security system that allows you to get better.”[/b]
It was the BBC that broadcast and narrated the item, Not a broadcaster I would associate with back Conservative narratives. I am also puzzled by how we now have a reported 2.5 million on long term sick leave.
The Governments proposals to help people back into the workplace includes compulsory validation checks by independent contractors. Seen this before in around 2000 when tick box validations into severity of disablement was used. I recall this well as one of my brothers was called in for such a check over.
So it’s not a new problem at all, separating the genuine from the malingerers is never straightforward. I think the term ‘let’s see what you can do, rather than what=you can’t ‘ carries weight.
Soon all this will be on the Labour Government, haven’t heard or read anything as yet regarding the issues.

Wombat3

12,246 posts

207 months

Saturday 27th April
quotequote all
President Merkin said:
bhstewie said:
....There's section of society who are very malleable and who are always convinced something or someone else is to blame for their problems and if they can just fix that things will be better....
Yep.

Wombat3 said:
The problems are systemic, they are about attitude , culture, community, lack of social and personal responsibility and lack of ethics. No politicians really have the answer to solving those issues...The real problems are not about what or who is in parliament though, its the rest of the population that needs to take a good look at itself.
Naturally, Onebat's fantasy English English exceptionalism excludes him & any of his pals from the conclusion above. It's us, but not me though. Bag of ste.
Bag of ste yourself mate.

You know nothing about me and mine.

oyster

12,613 posts

249 months

Saturday 27th April
quotequote all
Wombat3 said:
President Merkin said:
bhstewie said:
....There's section of society who are very malleable and who are always convinced something or someone else is to blame for their problems and if they can just fix that things will be better....
Yep.

Wombat3 said:
The problems are systemic, they are about attitude , culture, community, lack of social and personal responsibility and lack of ethics. No politicians really have the answer to solving those issues...The real problems are not about what or who is in parliament though, its the rest of the population that needs to take a good look at itself.
Naturally, Onebat's fantasy English English exceptionalism excludes him & any of his pals from the conclusion above. It's us, but not me though. Bag of ste.
Bag of ste yourself mate.

You know nothing about me and mine.
To give you the benefit of the doubt, could you elaborate more on the bit I've put in bold from your previous post?
What does the rest of the population need to do? And which part of the population?

Wombat3

12,246 posts

207 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
oyster said:
To give you the benefit of the doubt, could you elaborate more on the bit I've put in bold from your previous post?
What does the rest of the population need to do? And which part of the population?
The point at hand was simply that expecting Westminster to solve much of any substance has become beyond a forlorn hope IMO. Doesn't matter who is running it, they are all fairly fking useless and also impotent.

But equally trying to run the UK is also like trying to herd cats. There is little concensus and far too much adversorial behaviour and discourse.

The causes of the state the country is in also run much deeper and wider than just politics and politicians.

bitchstewie

51,486 posts

211 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
Wombat3 said:
Bag of ste yourself mate.

You know nothing about me and mine.
To be fair you do ooze "considerably richer than you" vibes.

Comes across as you've done OK so everyone else should be able to do so too and if they haven't it's because they didn't try hard enough.

Colonel Cupcake

1,084 posts

46 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
Blue62 said:
Colonel Cupcake said:
Blue62 could have simply put a full stop after 1924. I merely turned it around.
I really don’t think you’re the last word in grammar, but carry on flailing. It must be tough when even those sympathetic to your cause shy away, how sad.
What cause? I won't be voting for anyone. Flopping over to Labour because the Conservatives have messed up and then flopping back to the Conservatives when Labour mess up some more is just insane.

I'm sure Kier Starmer is an intelligent man but he has no plan (or is not willing to reveal it) so what exactly are people voting for in Labour?

President Merkin

3,100 posts

20 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
To be fair you do ooze "considerably richer than you" vibes.

Comes across as you've done OK so everyone else should be able to do so too and if they haven't it's because they didn't try hard enough.
Can't say I've noticed that much. More a grim world view spouted daily round here by the usual gammonny crowd, specifically it's everyone else's fault. What got in my tits yesterday was him punting mental health problems, which we know from extensive research has been heavily compunded by Covid and worsened by NHS pressures boils down to malingering wasters.

Of course, the right wing on here don't go in for nuance when there's the Mail & the Express handily repeating Tory spin in a front page headline.for them.

bitchstewie

51,486 posts

211 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
Is there an election yet? scratchchin

I can't figure out why people expect any party to have a manifesto published when there's no opportunity to vote for it yet.

Colonel Cupcake

1,084 posts

46 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
Is there an election yet? scratchchin

I can't figure out why people expect any party to have a manifesto published when there's no opportunity to vote for it yet.
Well, it's not far away but I have no idea of Mr Starmers vision of the future. Mr Sunak, for example, has outlined the usual 'bash the poor' should he retain office.

President Merkin

3,100 posts

20 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
He's also nicked a couple of announced Labour positions, non doms for one, so it's not much of a stretch, you would think to grasp why Starmer's keeping his powder dry until Sunak lifts his snout out of the trough fires the starting gun.

heebeegeetee

28,796 posts

249 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
Colonel Cupcake said:
What cause? I won't be voting for anyone. Flopping over to Labour because the Conservatives have messed up and then flopping back to the Conservatives when Labour mess up some more is just insane.

I'm sure Kier Starmer is an intelligent man but he has no plan (or is not willing to reveal it) so what exactly are people voting for in Labour?
When people speak like this, it's clear that they either have no idea, or have forgotten about the electoral system we have.

We have essentially two choices: one is to "flop" from one party or the other; the other is to vote for the same party no matter what, even after a disastrous 14 years. Either way, the majority of the people go unrepresented because we have FPTP.

Under the electoral system we have, do you want to explain how people behave less 'insanely' and do different, other than not vote?

For myself, come the election I'll use that website that Vordermann is promoting, to try to vote strategically to remove our incumbent Tory.

It'll be interesting, I live in a Tory safe seat that has voted the same for decades. The seat of Sutton Coldfield will be as good a litmus test as any. smile

bitchstewie

51,486 posts

211 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
Colonel Cupcake said:
Well, it's not far away but I have no idea of Mr Starmers vision of the future. Mr Sunak, for example, has outlined the usual 'bash the poor' should he retain office.
Agreed I'm not sure I know what he stands for whilst we know Sunak and the Conservatives stand for punching down and hating pretty much everyone.

But I'm still not sure why people expect to see a manifesto from any party right just now when an election might be six months away depending just how scared Sunak is to call one before he's forced to.

smn159

12,742 posts

218 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
It'll be interesting, I live in a Tory safe seat that has voted the same for decades. The seat of Sutton Coldfield will be as good a litmus test as any. smile
Labour win predicted

https://www.thisvotecounts.co.uk/constituency/sutt...



borcy

2,965 posts

57 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
Colonel Cupcake said:
Well, it's not far away but I have no idea of Mr Starmers vision of the future. Mr Sunak, for example, has outlined the usual 'bash the poor' should he retain office.
Agreed I'm not sure I know what he stands for whilst we know Sunak and the Conservatives stand for punching down and hating pretty much everyone.

But I'm still not sure why people expect to see a manifesto from any party right just now when an election might be six months away depending just how scared Sunak is to call one before he's forced to.
I think it's because many are keen for an election so a case of 'let's get on with it'
For some it's a chance to rip them apart.
For some it's give me a reason to vote for you.

Wills2

22,936 posts

176 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all

I believe that political parties reflect society, it's high time the people of the UK reflected on themselves and looked around at what they are creating because the current conversative gov is a manifestation of that, so are the Reform party, the SNP and of course the lunatics in charge of the asylum in Wales.

There have always been a few fringe idiots walking the corridors of power, but we now have a situation where every governing cabinet in the land is rammed full of them. They are in power and merrily making a pigs breakfast of it and it's our fault that they are there as we decide, but we've got to the point where too many people think it's always someone else's fault zero personal responsibility and they love that.

Keep everyone arguing with each each...divide and rule as they say, there is no longer any room for a decent centrist government to come in and govern for all the people, as the people won't allow it.








cheesejunkie

2,684 posts

18 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
borcy said:
I think it's because many are keen for an election so a case of 'let's get on with it'
For some it's a chance to rip them apart.
For some it's give me a reason to vote for you.
Probably one of the more honest answers on here.

I am looking forward to their ahole being ripped open.

I don’t hate tories or Tory voters but their time has come for a whuppin, lol. The fear stories about labour don’t scare me.

I’m old enough to remember the Blair years. They aren’t big scary monsters. I remember the thatcher years and know who the big scary bds are. They haven’t suddenly become any better but the worship for a failed ideology that won’t work today is problematic.

smn159

12,742 posts

218 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
Wills2 said:
I believe that political parties reflect society, it's high time the people of the UK reflected on themselves and looked around at what they are creating because the current conversative gov is a manifestation of that, so are the Reform party, the SNP and of course the lunatics in charge of the asylum in Wales.

There have always been a few fringe idiots walking the corridors of power, but we now have a situation where every governing cabinet in the land is rammed full of them. They are in power and merrily making a pigs breakfast of it and it's our fault that they are there as we decide, but we've got to the point where too many people think it's always someone else's fault zero personal responsibility and they love that.

Keep everyone arguing with each each...divide and rule as they say, there is no longer any room for a decent centrist government to come in and govern for all the people, as the people won't allow it.







I've long thought that the best thing that we could do as a society would be to shut down Facebook and other 'free' social media platforms.

Their business models actively drive this polarisation

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Arguments-Deleting-Social...

cheesejunkie

2,684 posts

18 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
smn159 said:
I've long thought that the best thing that we could do as a society would be to shut down Facebook and other 'free' social media platforms.

Their business models actively drive this polarisation

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Arguments-Deleting-Social...
Working in the industry. Having sat in meeting rooms where getting more social engagement and more profiling is discussed. I don’t disagree. Polarisation is profitable.

Best advice I can give is switch off every notification on your phone including badge icons. You should decide when to look at it, not somebody else, it’s not realistic to ditch the phone.