Tenerife Protests
Discussion
Scootersp said:
From another topic..........some googled quotes.
"The current protests in the Canary islands are about a similar issue, the residents can't live in their own country whilst "Foreigners bought half of the houses sold in the Canary Islands in 2022. The Canary Islands have become an ideal destination for people looking for a second home and investment. In fact, the sale and purchase of homes by foreigners accounted for 52% of all transactions in 2022"
Also "The Canary Islands have the highest rising house prices in Spain, going up by 22.5 percent in 2023, according to Fotocasa, with most of the properties being bought by people from abroad"
"Residents living in the holiday destination say too much tourism is damaging the environment, driving down wages and squeezing locals out of the housing market.
Some local people say they have been forced to sleep in their cars or even in caves."
How does limiting tourism stop people buying second homes and if what is written here it only applies to part of the island?"The current protests in the Canary islands are about a similar issue, the residents can't live in their own country whilst "Foreigners bought half of the houses sold in the Canary Islands in 2022. The Canary Islands have become an ideal destination for people looking for a second home and investment. In fact, the sale and purchase of homes by foreigners accounted for 52% of all transactions in 2022"
Also "The Canary Islands have the highest rising house prices in Spain, going up by 22.5 percent in 2023, according to Fotocasa, with most of the properties being bought by people from abroad"
"Residents living in the holiday destination say too much tourism is damaging the environment, driving down wages and squeezing locals out of the housing market.
Some local people say they have been forced to sleep in their cars or even in caves."
And surely the more tourists the more people earn?
The main problem is AirBNB.
There has been an explosion in the number of them.
Yes, property prices have gone up, why rent or sell when you can earn a 100% annual yield on a place you rent out on Airbnb ?
Yes the hosts look and speak European but the ownership is almost always Spanish.
There has been an explosion in the number of them.
Yes, property prices have gone up, why rent or sell when you can earn a 100% annual yield on a place you rent out on Airbnb ?
Yes the hosts look and speak European but the ownership is almost always Spanish.
Chris Type R said:
We cruised around the Canaries / Madeira earlier this year.
Our tour guide (obviously biased) made the point that Las Palma was struggling as tourism levels have dropped due to the combination of Covid and more significantly losing a major hotel to volcanic eruption.
Perhaps there is scope for spreading the tourism out a little.
La Palma isn't likely to attract the bucket and spade contingent, not much in the way of sandy beaches. Nice place though aside from the volcano.Our tour guide (obviously biased) made the point that Las Palma was struggling as tourism levels have dropped due to the combination of Covid and more significantly losing a major hotel to volcanic eruption.
Perhaps there is scope for spreading the tourism out a little.
croyde said:
As the Canaries are a special economic zone, they should run it like the Channel Islands, a place where even Brits find it difficult to move to and have to pay double the local prices for property.
The number of Brits living here is <20,000 in a population of over 1 million. We are a rounding error.Over 650k people live in the Capital Region of Santa Cruz De Tenerife, in the North.
You can walk for months in the north and not meet a Brit.
The unemployment rate on the island is between 20-21%. On that metric, It's like Middlesbrough but with worse demographics.
It's pretty staggering that people would want to constrain the economy but Airbnb needs to be under control.
Edited by Carl_VivaEspana on Sunday 28th April 17:28
Oliver Hardy said:
How does limiting tourism stop people buying second homes and if what is written here it only applies to part of the island?
And surely the more tourists the more people earn?
I don't think their protests come down to just tourism, they know it's the life blood of the country, it's the overall effect of more holidays homes, more retirees just more of everything non domestic that means it's ramped up on the affordability scale, ie it's cheap/reasonable for wealthy non doms and edging towards unaffordable for the regular population. I just think that for whatever reason the money isn't getting down to the lower levels sufficiently? or the amounts that are, aren't allowing the people to lead a normal life because they are in competition with thoseAnd surely the more tourists the more people earn?
The "people earn" part of your equation is not always evenly distributed? In a higher inflationary environment then an increase at the bottom can not even negate the increases in rent/food, an increase in the middle might keep you level/as you were and an increase at the top see you saving, as the daily essentials costs is such a relatively small part of your expenditure?
If property prices are going up 25% a year at times then none of the lower paid workers are getting that are they? so they are seeing homes their future way of life accelerating out way beyond their means, they see the rich of their and other countries buying everything slowly but surely?
Scootersp said:
I don't think their protests come down to just tourism, they know it's the life blood of the country, it's the overall effect of more holidays homes, more retirees just more of everything non domestic that means it's ramped up on the affordability scale, ie it's cheap/reasonable for wealthy non doms and edging towards unaffordable for the regular population. I just think that for whatever reason the money isn't getting down to the lower levels sufficiently? or the amounts that are, aren't allowing the people to lead a normal life because they are in competition with those
Presumably these holiday home owners and retirees spend money in the local economy? And bought their properties from Canarians who were happy to take their cash?Sounds like the UK, well London.
I'm 61, earn above average wage yet I'm struggling to pay rent, bills etc yet I had no problem living in London in my 20s.
I really worry about how my kids are going to manage.
My daughter works in Liverpool, works really hard, does extra hours yet can barely manage to cover her rent.....
For a room in a student house.
She desperately wants to leave and rent on her own but it's pretty impossible on her money, even in Liverpool.
I'm 61, earn above average wage yet I'm struggling to pay rent, bills etc yet I had no problem living in London in my 20s.
I really worry about how my kids are going to manage.
My daughter works in Liverpool, works really hard, does extra hours yet can barely manage to cover her rent.....
For a room in a student house.
She desperately wants to leave and rent on her own but it's pretty impossible on her money, even in Liverpool.
carl_w said:
Presumably these holiday home owners and retirees spend money in the local economy? And bought their properties from Canarians who were happy to take their cash?
Of course initially it was Canarians but with now 50% of non dom sales it's likely a large amount are now just between non doms? I'm not really apportioning blame on the sellers perhaps more on the legislation, the governmental lack of foresight perhaps because these days politicians are largely from families that do ok, and didn't see the longer term issues this might create?The nice balance is for the population to service the tourists, the tourists get a nice weather and reasonable cost holiday, the people of the islands can earn an ok living.
Once the property assets become a free for all and the rest of the world has more and moves in with it then you get these issues and they are only set to grow?
Tourism is good for the locals if the proceeds are returned to the general location, but I sense a shift to towards more of the income generated finding it's way to fewer people and in this case not all/many? of them living in that vicinity.
Taken to an extreme if all holiday lets are owned by non doms, they take all the profits back to their location but they want the residents to be as low as paid as possible waiters, maids etc etc and don't see/care that in time there is nowhere affordable for them to live?
Wealth is extracted from the region not recycled into it?
it's an escalating stair case which is mirrored in Ibiza.
Old lady works out she can get 1,350 EUR a month rather than 600pm if her nephew lists it and manages it on Airbnb.
Nephew takes the invoices and shows it to a bank manager and ends up with 5-12 flats all on Airbnb.
Banks see the yields (100-150%) and the word starts to spread to family offices and to smaller funds, capital starts to flow in.
Final boss - BlackRock buys everything and manages it as a financial asset.
Old lady works out she can get 1,350 EUR a month rather than 600pm if her nephew lists it and manages it on Airbnb.
Nephew takes the invoices and shows it to a bank manager and ends up with 5-12 flats all on Airbnb.
Banks see the yields (100-150%) and the word starts to spread to family offices and to smaller funds, capital starts to flow in.
Final boss - BlackRock buys everything and manages it as a financial asset.
Going through exactly this in Bali right now.
Concerns re level of tourism. Plus lots of foreigners stayed here during covid and more arrived on a permanent basis post-covid.
It’s a boom time. Huge growth. Over-development is a huge concern.
A few points.
- since COVID the people/government has had less patience with foreigners both tourist and living here. Cause trouble you will get deported. Had lots of Russians deported. If I mess up I will go to prison and the get deported. Overstay visa, work illegally, piss enough people off….deported. Right to appeal..none.
- Lots of people, especially young people, live in cheap accommodation. Think a studio or two room in a compound of similar or block. It’s how people live. I can’t rent one, nor can a tourist or ‘ex-pat’. There is a law against it - so landlords have to price to what the market can bear. More of these are being built in areas of high demand.
- Living in a car would be unacceptable to the Balinese: you would always have room with your aunt’s second cousin’s friend’s dad’s brother….the shame of having a relative homeless would be too much.
- My view is that people are happier on the whole. We pay some of my younger guys around the min wage for the regency. Gives them enough to rent a room (as above), have a bike on credit, mobile phone, food is cheap to buy on the road. Hang out with friends, see family…happy.
- Wages are rising as more business open. There is a significant talent gap though. I built a cocktail lounge in 2021 (free drink for any PH member in town) and its tough to get experienced people.
- Rules are tight on what foreigners are allowed to do. I can own a business and be involved in managing but i can’t work in it. You want a foreign chef in your kitchen hands on - you’ll need all the proper visas for them and pay £thousands for it. Of course he could risk just doing it anyway…..but see deportation in first point.
Concerns re level of tourism. Plus lots of foreigners stayed here during covid and more arrived on a permanent basis post-covid.
It’s a boom time. Huge growth. Over-development is a huge concern.
A few points.
- since COVID the people/government has had less patience with foreigners both tourist and living here. Cause trouble you will get deported. Had lots of Russians deported. If I mess up I will go to prison and the get deported. Overstay visa, work illegally, piss enough people off….deported. Right to appeal..none.
- Lots of people, especially young people, live in cheap accommodation. Think a studio or two room in a compound of similar or block. It’s how people live. I can’t rent one, nor can a tourist or ‘ex-pat’. There is a law against it - so landlords have to price to what the market can bear. More of these are being built in areas of high demand.
- Living in a car would be unacceptable to the Balinese: you would always have room with your aunt’s second cousin’s friend’s dad’s brother….the shame of having a relative homeless would be too much.
- My view is that people are happier on the whole. We pay some of my younger guys around the min wage for the regency. Gives them enough to rent a room (as above), have a bike on credit, mobile phone, food is cheap to buy on the road. Hang out with friends, see family…happy.
- Wages are rising as more business open. There is a significant talent gap though. I built a cocktail lounge in 2021 (free drink for any PH member in town) and its tough to get experienced people.
- Rules are tight on what foreigners are allowed to do. I can own a business and be involved in managing but i can’t work in it. You want a foreign chef in your kitchen hands on - you’ll need all the proper visas for them and pay £thousands for it. Of course he could risk just doing it anyway…..but see deportation in first point.
That sounds like a reasonable balance? or a balance more in line with protecting to some degree the rights of the Thai people?
It won't allow a complete "outside capital" takeover, it will try and let you do your thing, but have a eye on the fact that this needs to fundamentally benefit the country/region as much if not more than you? The balance to make it worth your while but not every Tom Dick and Harry's.
As you point out they are happy with basics, but a huge part is that you mention the places to rent are protected, elsewhere, where this doesn't happen is where the problems can start, at the bottom it's a fine line between having enough and contentment vs not enough and destitution/anger?
It won't allow a complete "outside capital" takeover, it will try and let you do your thing, but have a eye on the fact that this needs to fundamentally benefit the country/region as much if not more than you? The balance to make it worth your while but not every Tom Dick and Harry's.
As you point out they are happy with basics, but a huge part is that you mention the places to rent are protected, elsewhere, where this doesn't happen is where the problems can start, at the bottom it's a fine line between having enough and contentment vs not enough and destitution/anger?
Madrid has announced an immediate stop to any additional licences for AirBNB style rentals.
To put this in perspective in Madrid (pop. 3.2m)
"The situation in Madrid regarding VUTs is as follows: there are 13,502 operating in the city, but only 941 operate with a municipal licence and a further 151 are in process. All these properties add up to a total of 47,589 tourist beds, 30% of the total holiday accommodation offered in the capital.
Tourist apartments in the city have increased by 41% since 2017. While in this time, 5,564 new vacation homes have been counted, during the same period, only 50 tourist establishments (hotels, guesthouses, hostels, etc.) have been created, resulting in 65% of the newly created places in this period corresponding to VUTs."
941 with a licence out of 13,502 LOL
Just for balance, as a recovering Londoner (it's been over 6 months since I ventured in, even that was zone 3) I used to get pissed off with the tourists too.
There you are, trying to go about your daily business and a Japanese family is shuffling along pointing with amazement at the shop where you get your bread and milk. Then in summer you are trying to get some work done and some Emirate d
head is revving the nuts off his Lambo. Then you have the misfortune of meeting some Mancunians. Mancunians can be spotted a mile off as they are the only variety of northerner to make Londoners appear friendly and gregarious. Generally one of them will be whingeing to another about how Manchester has a thing that London doesn't have.
Ah, back when you didn't need to be a gazillionaire to live, own a car and drive in central London. That was only around the early-noughties too!
There you are, trying to go about your daily business and a Japanese family is shuffling along pointing with amazement at the shop where you get your bread and milk. Then in summer you are trying to get some work done and some Emirate d
head is revving the nuts off his Lambo. Then you have the misfortune of meeting some Mancunians. Mancunians can be spotted a mile off as they are the only variety of northerner to make Londoners appear friendly and gregarious. Generally one of them will be whingeing to another about how Manchester has a thing that London doesn't have.Ah, back when you didn't need to be a gazillionaire to live, own a car and drive in central London. That was only around the early-noughties too!
Carl_VivaEspana said:
The main problem is AirBNB.
There has been an explosion in the number of them.
Yes, property prices have gone up, why rent or sell when you can earn a 100% annual yield on a place you rent out on Airbnb ?
Yes the hosts look and speak European but the ownership is almost always Spanish.
Same on Majorca... we stayed in an AirBnB type place last time we went and the guy we met to show us to the house said, next time, just contact him directly as he has 50 or so properties and could sort us out a bit cheaper next time. He was Swedish, but his business partner (and the guy who actually bought most of the properties to begin with) was from mainland Spain. The Swede was mainly the boots on the ground guy.There has been an explosion in the number of them.
Yes, property prices have gone up, why rent or sell when you can earn a 100% annual yield on a place you rent out on Airbnb ?
Yes the hosts look and speak European but the ownership is almost always Spanish.
donkmeister said:
Just for balance, as a recovering Londoner (it's been over 6 months since I ventured in, even that was zone 3) I used to get pissed off with the tourists too.
There you are, trying to go about your daily business and a Japanese family is shuffling along pointing with amazement at the shop where you get your bread and milk. Then in summer you are trying to get some work done and some Emirate dhead is revving the nuts off his Lambo. Then you have the misfortune of meeting some Mancunians. Mancunians can be spotted a mile off as they are the only variety of northerner to make Londoners appear friendly and gregarious. Generally one of them will be whingeing to another about how Manchester has a thing that London doesn't have.
Ah, back when you didn't need to be a gazillionaire to live, own a car and drive in central London. That was only around the early-noughties too!
Ironically I describe Chorlton in Manchester as a place for Londoners to live. It's not a compliment. There you are, trying to go about your daily business and a Japanese family is shuffling along pointing with amazement at the shop where you get your bread and milk. Then in summer you are trying to get some work done and some Emirate d
head is revving the nuts off his Lambo. Then you have the misfortune of meeting some Mancunians. Mancunians can be spotted a mile off as they are the only variety of northerner to make Londoners appear friendly and gregarious. Generally one of them will be whingeing to another about how Manchester has a thing that London doesn't have.Ah, back when you didn't need to be a gazillionaire to live, own a car and drive in central London. That was only around the early-noughties too!
We have the same issue with AirBnB here in the Peak District. As the demand rises they spread out moving into what were once 100% residential areas, I guess my road is now probably 30% holiday rentals. There was one when we moved here 7 years ago.
We have a shared ownership housing estate behind us and I got asked buy a couple of tourists were a particular street was. So even council houses aren't immune.
We have a shared ownership housing estate behind us and I got asked buy a couple of tourists were a particular street was. So even council houses aren't immune.
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