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drivin_me_nuts

13,784 posts

80 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
Watchman said:
drivin_me_nuts said:
Will never be fixed. Ever. There will ALWAYS be mistakes and the innocent will be executed. It is barbaric beyond words, serves no deterrent purpose and satisfies little more than 'society's' bloody lust for 'justice'. So glad we do not have it here.
It's not a deterrent, no but you deride society's need for "blood justice" as though it was factually wrong when it's no more than an opinion.
Justice demands an appropriate response for a crime committed. At times the process of justice gets it very wrong. At times those who determine sentencing are way out of kilter with zeitgeist. But justice needs to be more than the need/whim/opinion of the layman, the angry victim and the baying hounds of the 'outraged' majority. Or there is no justice. Terminating life sates nothing but bloodlust and a misguided sense that a wrong had been righted. It serves no purpose (other than the financial need to keep penal costs lower).

TheHeretic

68,252 posts

124 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
You must not kill! Killing is bad, and immoral, and evil, and you shall be punished... We therefore sentence you to be executed! hehe

Not a fan myself. A stty little prison on a stty island somewhere stty would be my preference.

otolith

19,408 posts

73 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
There is an academic distaste for the idea that revenge is a legitimate function of justice, which I think causes the working of justice systems to be out of kilter with the expectations of the people who rely upon them.

omgus

4,875 posts

44 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
You think it is a deterrent?
Sadly in the case of many of these examples no, not a deterrent but in some cases it could be.

It is fair to say i have issues with societies views on sponsored death, be it capital punishment or euthanasia i believe if we treated people more like we treated our pets then it would be a better system.

I would not hesitate any longer to have a killer dog put down any more than one that is in constant pain, but a sadist who is beyond rehabilitation is allowed to live whilst our loved ones are forced to travel to another country to die with dignity.

It is a strange situation.

I must also add i am not talking about killing all murderers/rapists but there should be a point where someone who clearly cannot be allowed back into society and who will always pose a risk should be considered surplas to requirements.

Edit for I before E except after C.

Edited by omgus on Thursday 5th July 15:55

Blue62

1,396 posts

21 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
Actus Reus said:
I literally can't see a single failing in that plan. I mean, how many people have been wrongly convicted in the UK in the last 20 odd years, I can only think of, oohhh, 10? 20?
I have a feeling that your response may just be a little too subtle for this one, probably read your first sentance and now thinks you've endorsed him, he'll be looking you up on Linked in next, you have been warned.

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TheHeretic

68,252 posts

124 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
omgus said:
Sadly in the case of many of these examples no, not a deterrent, but in some cases it could be.

It is fair to say i have issues with societies views on sponsored death, be it capital punishment or euthanasia i beleive if we treated people more like we treated our pets then it would be a better system.

I would not hesitate any longer to have a killer dog put down any more than one that is in constant pain, but a sadist who is beyond rehabilitationis allowed to live whilst our loved ones are forced to travel to another country to die with dignity.

It is a strange situation.

I must also add i am not talking about killing all murderers/rapists but there should be a point where someone who clearly cannot be allowed back into society and who will always pose a should be considered surplas to requirements.
Have you seen the list of exonerated death row prisoners, many posthumously. Despite DNA evidence being available since 1987 the list doesn't seem to be getting much smaller. If someone is guilty, I have no issue. Determining guilt, however, seems to be quite a tricky issue, as the list shows. I would rather all death row chaps were locked up for life, rather than see someone innocent killed in my name. Once they are dead, a posthumous exoneration is of no use at all.

otolith

19,408 posts

73 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
I am not in favour of the death penalty, though it does seem perverse to stop lifers committing suicide. Having said that, I hear that Brady is still being kept alive very much against his will, and I can't help but hope the bd lives miserably as long as possible.

Nightmare

4,440 posts

153 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
dingg said:
http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/death_row/dr_info/hend...

hmmm if circumstances are factual surely shouldn't be on death row??
Thought exactly the same thing....whilst only knowing the summary - so very little - it seems hard to equate that with, say Suzanne Basso or Brittney holbergs.....

P-Jay

3,648 posts

60 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
omgus said:
StottyZr said:
P-Jay said:
Read some of the charges and they do seem to have done some dark st, but I could never condone capitol punishment, it's barbaric and makes them just as bad as the criminals.
No it doesn't at all. How can you actually believe this statement?
I do not agree with the keyboard warrior statements about beating criminal to death or gouging out thier eyes but i see no reason why those that have commited these actions should be allowed to live.
Quick and clean, exactly like when a dog that has turned nasty needs to be put down.
And yes sometimes mistakes can be made, which is tragic, but we should concentrate on fixing the system so no more mistakes can be made, not removing the deterent incase of error.
My point about making the executors (the entire legal system that allows it) as bad as the criminals is simple - The Human race considers the killing of one of it's members by another as the gravest crime possible, and in most of these cases (if not all, I'm not reading all of them, too depressing) the criminals are being killed because they killed someone in some fashion or other.

The Court, in term, killing them makes them just as bad, the crime against humanity is the same. Yes you could argue that the criminals victims may have faced a more gruesome death after being shot, stabbed, whatever - but that's not a deciding factor in most cases in terms of sentencing.

What is a major factor is whether it was premeditated or not, and to what degree. The worst being the pre-planned, organised killing - or execution, by it's very definition capital punishment is the very gravest of crimes.

It's simply not a deterrent.
It's not humane, it's simply made to be quiet so the population will stomach it - if you wanted to make it humane you could place the victim under a general and remove/destroy the heart / brain and the experience (if only physically not mentally) would be no worse than having you appendix out, but I imagine as they insist these things are public it would be a little too gruesome for them.
It's also not cheaper than life-long prison.

It's simply a vote winner with the stupid, who are no better than the ghoulish crowds that used to form around medieval beheadings, who are more interested in revenge than justice.

KrazyIvan

2,520 posts

44 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
Some people have no place in society, how this is achieved is the right of each sovereign nation and its ruling party, who are we to claim their way is wrong and pronounce ours right!

I personally feel that some crimes are so heinous that the liberty of which the criminal has removed from the victim, should be taken from them also, though I think that the death penalty is not the only way to do this. But at the same time I find it odd that we prize the human rights of the criminal so highly that they are still given a place in society to voice themselves in one way or another.

MP85

646 posts

64 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
Ian Hislop is censored fantastic.

TheHeretic

68,252 posts

124 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
KrazyIvan said:
Some people have no place in society, how this is achieved is the right of each sovereign nation and its ruling party, who are we to claim their way is wrong and pronounce ours right!

I personally feel that some crimes are so heinous that the liberty of which the criminal has removed from the victim, should be taken from them also, though I think that the death penalty is not the only way to do this. But at the same time I find it odd that we prize the human rights of the criminal so highly that they are still given a place in society to voice themselves in one way or another.
Really? I presume you were fine with various genocides around the world, after all, who are we to say who has a place, or not in society?

My issue is not with the heinous nature of the crime, rather with the idea that an innocent person would be executed. That, to me, is far worse than simply locking someone up until they die. The idea of revenge that some people seem to associate with justice is a bit absurd to me.

I suggest you take a look at the link I posted regarding exonerated death row prisoners.

omgus

4,875 posts

44 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
Have you seen the list of exonerated death row prisoners, many posthumously.
Yes and it is shocking.
TheHeretic said:
Despite DNA evidence being available since 1987 the list doesn't seem to be getting much smaller.
True. but it leads me on to
TheHeretic said:
If someone is guilty, I have no issue.
My point exactly, as i believe we should concentrate on fixing the system. I am not saying that anyone who is proven to be guilty should be culled but that there should be some cases where it should be considered.
TheHeretic said:
Determining guilt, however, seems to be quite a tricky issue, as the list shows. I would rather all death row chaps were locked up for life, rather than see someone innocent killed in my name.
The death of one wrongly convicted person is a tragedy, but allowing some people to continue live is (in my opinion) a travesty.
TheHeretic said:
Once they are dead, a posthumous exoneration is of no use at all.
I wholeheartedly agree, but fear of making a mistake shouldn't remove the option completely.

TheHeretic

68,252 posts

124 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
So you will happily let innocent people be executed so that you can have the pleasure of executed crime? Seems very odd.

Watchman

1,975 posts

114 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
drivin_me_nuts said:
Watchman said:
drivin_me_nuts said:
Will never be fixed. Ever. There will ALWAYS be mistakes and the innocent will be executed. It is barbaric beyond words, serves no deterrent purpose and satisfies little more than 'society's' bloody lust for 'justice'. So glad we do not have it here.
It's not a deterrent, no but you deride society's need for "blood justice" as though it was factually wrong when it's no more than an opinion.
Justice demands an appropriate response for a crime committed. At times the process of justice gets it very wrong. At times those who determine sentencing are way out of kilter with zeitgeist. But justice needs to be more than the need/whim/opinion of the layman, the angry victim and the baying hounds of the 'outraged' majority. Or there is no justice. Terminating life sates nothing but bloodlust and a misguided sense that a wrong had been righted. It serves no purpose (other than the financial need to keep penal costs lower).
There you go again using words like "misguided" as though it was a fact. Justice means different things to different people - there is no one-solution. Capital punishment is simply another item on the available menu.

That you concede there is an "outraged majority" wanting capital punishment, yet take the opposite side suggests you're not in favour of a democratic vote about it. However, *I* will concede that democracy gave rise to Hitler which wasn't the 20th Century's finest hour.

What I'm saying is, it's not that simple to take one side or the other in this debate. Clearly, from some of the statements I've read in the OP's link, the fact that some of those offenders regret their previous actions so completely probably means they ought to be given a life sentence instead, however there are others for whom a simple painless death is too good, whether that be because of the horror of their crimes, the assessment that they'd offend again, or their general regretlessness (if that's even a word).

The problem with America's legal system reflects the inequalities of their social structure. It's clear to outsiders to see, especially to those who reside in countries for whom racism appears to be dying out (I hope I'm right about that). I can't help but think if we Europeans still had the death penalty that it's method would be beyond criticism, and for whom it was intended would be less overtly biased.

It does trouble me though that there are people going to the "gallows" where absolute proof has not been established, and I do concede that until such a time as this is ironed out, I would prefer to err on the side of caution.

omgus

4,875 posts

44 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
So you will happily let innocent people be executed so that you can have the pleasure of executed crime? Seems very odd.
I didn't say that.

TheHeretic

68,252 posts

124 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
omgus said:
I didn't say that.
Well, you did. Despite the risk, (and evidence of such things occurring, not just on death row), you will still lead people to the chamber, because a crim living is worse to you than an innocent dying.

Ali2202

2,741 posts

73 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
So many chilling stories. So much pain caused.

There's quite a lot of Gallows 'humour' too....

''Last Statement

Date of Execution:

April 11, 2007

Offender:

Clark, James

Last Statement:

Uh, I don't know, Um, I don't know what to say. I don't know. (pauses) I didn't know anybody was there. Howdy.''




Edited by Ali2202 on Thursday 5th July 16:26

omgus

4,875 posts

44 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
It is not about pleasure of seeing someone die, it is about knowing that they can never be allowed back into the world at large, why keep something that is broken?


KrazyIvan

2,520 posts

44 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
KrazyIvan said:
Some people have no place in society, how this is achieved is the right of each sovereign nation and its ruling party, who are we to claim their way is wrong and pronounce ours right!

I personally feel that some crimes are so heinous that the liberty of which the criminal has removed from the victim, should be taken from them also, though I think that the death penalty is not the only way to do this. But at the same time I find it odd that we prize the human rights of the criminal so highly that they are still given a place in society to voice themselves in one way or another.
Really? I presume you were fine with various genocides around the world, after all, who are we to say who has a place, or not in society?

My issue is not with the heinous nature of the crime, rather with the idea that an innocent person would be executed. That, to me, is far worse than simply locking someone up until they die. The idea of revenge that some people seem to associate with justice is a bit absurd to me.

I suggest you take a look at the link I posted regarding exonerated death row prisoners.
rolleyes

Yes that is exactly what I am saying.(whats that saying about not arguing with an idiot)

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