What are your unpopular opinions? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
Wildcat45 said:
The war put the brakes on Coca Cola being available in the Fatherland. So alongside plans for world domination, genocide, and silly marches, they got busy developing a fizzy drink. Fanta.
That is interesting.Although according to Wikipedia Coca Cola Germany stopped making Fanta in 1949, and an Italian company started making an orange flavoured drink called Fanta in 1955. Coca Cola bought the brand in 1960.
So I’m not sure modern Fanta is actually related to the German version other than sharing the same name.
On the idea of the NHS declining to cover lifestyle related illness - I think if the NHS gets to pick and choose which risks it covers, the taxpayer has to be allowed to choose whether to be part of the scheme. At which point those people who are low risk or high income opt out and the whole thing collapses.
Pretty much all of the illnesses the NHS treats are to some extent lifestyle related, I think if how people live is dictated by the needs of the NHS the tail is wagging the dog.
Pretty much all of the illnesses the NHS treats are to some extent lifestyle related, I think if how people live is dictated by the needs of the NHS the tail is wagging the dog.
GreatGranny said:
Countdown said:
It could be argued that the reason the Country is in the state it is, is because there are too many people taking out and not enough putting in.
Absolute nonsense!Sway said:
Forester1965 said:
aving sold capital equipment into trusts, I'd wager a significant issue is a cultural mistrust of non-medically qualified staff making decisions affecting medical departments.
And that's fair enough - but irrelevant for non decision making roles, and where they're making recommendations, it should be absolutely robust to challenge from senior medically qualified staff that there's been the appropriate input and collaboration from those front line medics.Indeed, they should be there front and centre also making the recommendation!
Next, I was senior house officer for 2 years at another hospital, still more than 20 years ago, doing my basic surgical training rotation. It was a brand new, PFI building. I had actually been to the old hospital during medical school as part of an attachment, but this building was now brand spanking new, everything should've worked really well. However, when the architect was designing the building and asked for information on various things, that information was sent by somebody with no clinical experience, and nobody thought to check with somebody with clinical experience either. With nothing better to go on, they just assumed that the size of a hospital bed was the same as a standard single bed. As a result, 2 hospital beds, especially those with lots of medical kit hanging off them couldn't get past each other in any of the departmental corridors, notably in the X-ray department and in operating theatres. What were patient waiting areas in X-ray had to be used as passing points in a single lane roads, and beds either had to be bounced off each other, or use recovery room as a passing point in theatres.
It's easy to say senior medical staff should be front and centre in decision making and have an input into recommendations, but after decades of being ignored, most people have pretty much given up. There's no trust left, and there's no way of getting that trust back either. I don't know what the solution is because I'm no longer in the NHS. If everyone does what I did, there'll be no NHS left.
I sympathise with your two experiences (I'm sure amongst many others). Neither of them support the principle of requiring clinicians' input, though. You don't need a clinician to understand what is being bought and used in particular types of operation- if they didn't know that's a communication failure in the system somewhere. Fitting a clinician into the purchasing/P&L wouldn't solve that. Equally, you don't need a clinician to work out how large or small a room should be to accommodate people and objects in it.
You want your medically trained staff doing things that require the medical training. That's the part that's expensive and in short supply. Everything else should be managed by people whose skill is directly related to the job in hand (i.e. running an organisation). If they're bad at managing, the answer is to get better at it/better managers rather than repurposing medical staff to jobs to which they're ill suited.
You want your medically trained staff doing things that require the medical training. That's the part that's expensive and in short supply. Everything else should be managed by people whose skill is directly related to the job in hand (i.e. running an organisation). If they're bad at managing, the answer is to get better at it/better managers rather than repurposing medical staff to jobs to which they're ill suited.
Forester1965 said:
I sympathise with your two experiences (I'm sure amongst many others). Neither of them support the principle of requiring clinicians' input, though. You don't need a clinician to understand what is being bought and used in particular types of operation- if they didn't know that's a communication failure in the system somewhere. Fitting a clinician into the purchasing/P&L wouldn't solve that. Equally, you don't need a clinician to work out how large or small a room should be to accommodate people and objects in it.
You want your medically trained staff doing things that require the medical training. That's the part that's expensive and in short supply. Everything else should be managed by people whose skill is directly related to the job in hand (i.e. running an organisation). If they're bad at managing, the answer is to get better at it/better managers rather than repurposing medical staff to jobs to which they're ill suited.
The fact that you think neither these nor the countless other experiences I've had in the NHS support the principle of requiring clinical input is precisely why we are where we are, with no trust in managers. Of course you need clinicians' input in purchasing to understand what needs to be bought and used in particular types of operations. Give me sutures of the wrong material and size, and I can't implant the valve that needs to go inside the heart in front of me. Give an orthopaedic surgeon the sutures I would use for a heart valve, and watch his handiwork fall apart. Often we even use different types of gloves due to the different properties of the gloves and what we're doing. Different patients and different operations need different types of valves, joint prostheses, sutures, all sorts of stuff, but certain things are identical, just different names by different manufacturers, or sometimes are constructed differently but perform similarly. Even dressings for post operative wounds can be different. How the hell would somebody with no clinical knowledge know which to buy? Their sole target becomes cost savings and money, outcomes go out of the window, and it's the clinicians who have to work with 2nd or 3rd rate st. Everybody thinks they can google stuff and become an expert in anything in 10 minutes, find a cheaper supplier for X product which sounds like it does the same job as what's currently being used without a proper comparison, order a shedload of the stuff, and dump it on the end user. It doesn't have to be a clinician who does the actual ordering, but there should be some communication and sense checking, but that's currently missing and has been so for a while. It doesn't have to be doctor either, there are plenty of instances where nurses or other healthcare professionals would be more suitable, but they don't get consulted either.You want your medically trained staff doing things that require the medical training. That's the part that's expensive and in short supply. Everything else should be managed by people whose skill is directly related to the job in hand (i.e. running an organisation). If they're bad at managing, the answer is to get better at it/better managers rather than repurposing medical staff to jobs to which they're ill suited.
Clinician managers exist, there are plenty of them. Not everyone who trains as a doctor or a nurse stays in a 100% clinical role for the rest of their career, especially as they get older and wiser, when the hectic clinical work starts to take its toll but some leave earlier for a variety of reasons. Instead of utilising their experience and wisdom, they're often seen as "the enemy" by the executive team of a hospital though.
To add another perspective on this, I would say (some) Doctors do get a reputation for not playing nicely with others. By that I mean they can have a limited view of the wider organisation and everybody else's 'wants'. Not born out of malice but perhaps culturally it's not encouraged, as people move up, to have a wider understanding of how all the parts come together to achieve. Also the knock on effects of 'want that', sometimes it's not always obvious why something is the way it is.
The conflict between the board and senior clinicians does seem a recurring theme, if I had to bet there's probably loads of execs who equally think Drs see us as the enemy. Where it comes from and why would be an interesting topic.
I think this and training for leadership and management was brought up in the Messenger review. I'm not if it's been acted or just ignored.
The conflict between the board and senior clinicians does seem a recurring theme, if I had to bet there's probably loads of execs who equally think Drs see us as the enemy. Where it comes from and why would be an interesting topic.
I think this and training for leadership and management was brought up in the Messenger review. I'm not if it's been acted or just ignored.
Forester1965 said:
Yep.
If course you need a clinician to specify a product for a particular task. Of course you don't need a clinician to organise the purchasing and, stocking and cost management associated with it.
Whilst in theory you are right, in practice it doesn’t work. In my wife’s experience, the clinicians communicate their wishes and their wishes are often ignored as the manager think they can cut costs or even know better. It might be that they don’t listen. It might even be that they are incompetent. If course you need a clinician to specify a product for a particular task. Of course you don't need a clinician to organise the purchasing and, stocking and cost management associated with it.
For example, her unit was moved to a new site. She gave an extensive specification of what was clinically important. She also asked to be on the committee overseeing it. The managers kept putting her off until she, as clinical director for the trust, put her foot down. When she eventually got involved, she found innumerable mistakes had been made: not enough power sockets to run the equipment required for the clinics; doors not wide enough to allow disabled access (it is a disabled children’s centre), insufficient disabled parking, insufficient data cabling/lan points and Wi-Fi. They were all things that she’d specified at the start of the project. There was lots of shuffling of feet and “well we thought this was good enough”. The building had to be ripped apart and the project went wildly over budget and behind schedule, as basic requirements hadn’t been factored in as required and requested. The project manager left shortly after and went to another trust on a higher salary.
Were that an isolated example. There are currently plans to build a shiny new children’s hospital. AFAIUI, it will have fewer beds than the current adult one has for paediatrics. It won’t accommodate community paediatricians who care for the long term disabled.
Yes, it is lack of communication but it is just as much project managers thinking that they are in charge and letting their inflated egos get in the way.
I dealt with exactly these problem for decades in IT. Project managers do NOT make decisions on technical (or clinical) matters. Those decisions should be made by, and only by, the people that are actually going to be doing the job and the function of management is to support those decisions. Project managers are one step up from the tea boy and their function is to organise, administrate and facilitate. That is all. When they start changing that which has been specified because they think they know better and, well, this cheaper one is just the same and will be OK, that's when things go to st and the whole project ends up costing twice as much or overrunning or failing to meet the OR.
I will say that there are some, a few, project managers who I have worked with that actually know their role and do it brilliantly. The vast majority, however, are just self-important tossers.
I dealt with exactly these problem for decades in IT. Project managers do NOT make decisions on technical (or clinical) matters. Those decisions should be made by, and only by, the people that are actually going to be doing the job and the function of management is to support those decisions. Project managers are one step up from the tea boy and their function is to organise, administrate and facilitate. That is all. When they start changing that which has been specified because they think they know better and, well, this cheaper one is just the same and will be OK, that's when things go to st and the whole project ends up costing twice as much or overrunning or failing to meet the OR.
I will say that there are some, a few, project managers who I have worked with that actually know their role and do it brilliantly. The vast majority, however, are just self-important tossers.
Strangely Brown said:
Yes, it is lack of communication but it is just as much project managers thinking that they are in charge and letting their inflated egos get in the way.
I dealt with exactly these problem for decades in IT. Project managers do NOT make decisions on technical (or clinical) matters. Those decisions should be made by, and only by, the people that are actually going to be doing the job and the function of management is to support those decisions. Project managers are one step up from the tea boy and their function is to organise, administrate and facilitate. That is all. When they start changing that which has been specified because they think they know better and, well, this cheaper one is just the same and will be OK, that's when things go to st and the whole project ends up costing twice as much or overrunning or failing to meet the OR.
I will say that there are some, a few, project managers who I have worked with that actually know their role and do it brilliantly. The vast majority, however, are just self-important tossers.
I think that opinion is only unpopular with project managers I dealt with exactly these problem for decades in IT. Project managers do NOT make decisions on technical (or clinical) matters. Those decisions should be made by, and only by, the people that are actually going to be doing the job and the function of management is to support those decisions. Project managers are one step up from the tea boy and their function is to organise, administrate and facilitate. That is all. When they start changing that which has been specified because they think they know better and, well, this cheaper one is just the same and will be OK, that's when things go to st and the whole project ends up costing twice as much or overrunning or failing to meet the OR.
I will say that there are some, a few, project managers who I have worked with that actually know their role and do it brilliantly. The vast majority, however, are just self-important tossers.
Jordie Barretts sock said:
If you can ignore the genocide, the NZDAP did a fantastic job of making Germany believe in itself again. - For reference, I am not a Fascist, have never been a Fascist and do not support Fascism. I had a very good Italian friend who idolised Mussolini though (he grew up during Italian Fascism) and he always said, " when they hung him up, no money fell out of his pockets". Presumably referring to the corrupt politicians that followed.
My opinion, and not sure it's unpopular, is that any comment about history that starts with "If you can ignore the genocide" isn't really worth reading, unless is says "If you can ignore the genocide, then you're a psychopath".I can't ignore the genocide, nor can I ignore the fact that Mussolini was hanged, not hung. He was a human, not a painting.
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