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Krikkit
2,460 posts
50 months
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I can't believe this car crash has got to 12 pages. Brilliant.
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Gene Vincent
Original Poster
4,002 posts
27 months
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Greg66 said: Gene Vincent said: dundarach said: 3. For a moment accept parallel universes exist, is time constant across them all? 3/. They don't exist, but if they were to exist then most likely yes, time is constant just as everything else would be constant to maintain an alternative cosmos. Really? What makes you say that with such confidence? I only ask because I am reading (read: crawling slowly) "The Hidden Reality" by Brian Greene. He seems to be a pretty smart guy, and unless he's going to undertake a massive backtrack sometime after chapter 7, he would say otherwise. Now I seem to recall from something you have previously written (I think about dark matter, but I can't recall for sure) that you are self-admittedly "non mainstream", to use a shorthand, on some stuff. I'll explain. Mr. Greene is a great mathematician however I consider his work too wrapped up in justifying his time on String theory and to me this colours his entire approach to maths and his explanations, there is nothing wrong with that, there are nuggets of truth in String theory still to be found I feel. I'm no more or less 'mainstream' than him, furthermore being 'mainstream' is the antithesis of what a theoretician has to be. We all have our own ways of interpreting the maths. So where does the foundation of his hypothesis come from? Mainly from some of the resolution difficulties of 3 particular fields (QFT) mathematics, but they do not show what he postulates, they simply point to 'something'. So it does have a foundation. I'll tell you why I don't agree with it. First, for Greene and the string advocates the Cosmos started in one shot, this finely balanced Cosmos formed in one attempt, this is the consequence of string theory mathematics, for me, a less close adherent of string theory, this Cosmos is simply too finely balanced to have been 'right' at the first attempt. But I have to resolve that 'something' in the field maths and for me it is a result of the almost infinite attempts at a stable Cosmos, the maths allow this too. The 'not a hole in one' postulation is not new, but the biggest stumbling block for us was the lack of remnants of the numerous failed starts, just like a cars engine that fails to start there had to be some 'soot' about from the moderately successful attempts... and lots of it. It was postulated that this would be some sort of 'energy' that was either spent or non-interactive, the confirmation of huge amounts of Dark Energy (with remarkably similar properties to those hypothesised in the late 90s) has only bolstered my point of view, largely at the cost of the various competitive postulations including Multiverses. Additionally, parsimony mitigates against the Multiverse concept from every angle whereas parsimony actually supports the existence of remnant of previous failures to produce this Cosmos. That is why I'm so confident that Mr. Greene is wrong, almost every day something is added to the understanding of Dark Energy and to date every part of it seems to support my position and undermines his.
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MiseryStreak
752 posts
76 months
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This is easily the best thread I have ever read on PH. Even some of the bickering was fun. I can't help think that GV is deliberately arrogant on here as it starts some interesting asides with people trying to prove him wrong. Although he is a mathematician, rather than a scientist, so more accustomed to dealing with proofs than theories. I can't imagine he is as arrogant with his peers. Anyway, I was really interested in the biological element of time dilation. It was my understanding that as a person's motion approached c, it is the distance travelled that shortens, so that less time has passed for the person in motion. As less time has passed, for what reason would their metabolic rate speed up to counter any ageing paradox? I don't see this is a paradox either, anymore than successfully freezing someone would stall their ageing. I really need to hear more about this, and in particular, where are the biological distinctions drawn; would it apply to a virus or even an amino acid? I can't help but see this being a purely human phenomenon as an example of carbon chauvinism. I would also like the finite cosmos/infinite universe concept explained further. If there is no spacetime in the universe vacuum then how can its properties, and in particular, size be defined? I imagine that is a mathematical concept and would fall over the moment you tried to put it into words but if you could try. Is it a probable infinity? One in which the cosmos could expand in that direction, but might not? I can't imagine it as a physical thing (I have enough trouble with a 92B light year cosmos) and need help. Lastly, after reading all three pages, I felt it a bit unfair that Capt Bravz's excellent custard time travel joke went without a single laugh. It was genius. Have a  from me.
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Gene Vincent
Original Poster
4,002 posts
27 months
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Yep, Capt Bravz did not go unnoticed. Good sport.
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hairykrishna
8,976 posts
72 months
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Greg66 said: After all, the old saying "in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King" is probably rarely more true than when discussing theoretical physics on a car forum. There are few physicists on here I think - at least 3 I'm aware of. I'm a professional physicist, I do physics research at a university for a living, although I'm very much more an experimentalist than theorist.
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hairykrishna
8,976 posts
72 months
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MiseryStreak said: Anyway, I was really interested in the biological element of time dilation. It was my understanding that as a person's motion approached c, it is the distance travelled that shortens, so that less time has passed for the person in motion. As less time has passed, for what reason would their metabolic rate speed up to counter any ageing paradox? I don't see this is a paradox either, anymore than successfully freezing someone would stall their ageing. I really need to hear more about this, and in particular, where are the biological distinctions drawn; would it apply to a virus or even an amino acid? I can't help but see this being a purely human phenomenon as an example of carbon chauvinism. There's no evidence or reason to believe that metabolism or aging would experience time dilation any differently than any other chemical process. Before this thread I'd never even heard anyone suggest it as a possibility.
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Bedazzled
4,068 posts
90 months
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MiseryStreak said: Anyway, I was really interested in the biological element of time dilation. It was my understanding that as a person's motion approached c, it is the distance travelled that shortens, so that less time has passed for the person in motion. As less time has passed, for what reason would their metabolic rate speed up to counter any ageing paradox? I mentioned that a while back, unfortunately it was ignored...  Bedazzled said: From the perspective of the twin who leaves Earth, the passage of time is normal while the distance they are travelling actually shortens. How could the physical distance be different for the biological entity that is the twin and the electric watch strapped to their wrist...?!
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Gene Vincent
Original Poster
4,002 posts
27 months
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hairykrishna said: There's no evidence or reason to believe that metabolism or aging would experience time dilation any differently than any other chemical process. Before this thread I'd never even heard anyone suggest it as a possibility. You almost certainly have, but in a form you haven't appreciated the ramifications of. More later.
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MiseryStreak
752 posts
76 months
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Bedazzled said: MiseryStreak said: Anyway, I was really interested in the biological element of time dilation. It was my understanding that as a person's motion approached c, it is the distance travelled that shortens, so that less time has passed for the person in motion. As less time has passed, for what reason would their metabolic rate speed up to counter any ageing paradox? I mentioned that a while back, unfortunately it was ignored...  Bedazzled said: From the perspective of the twin who leaves Earth, the passage of time is normal while the distance they are travelling actually shortens. How could the physical distance be different for the biological entity that is the twin and the electric watch strapped to their wrist...?! Oops! Yes, I did read your post, but amongst all the others at once, and it does look like I have just repeated verbatim what you already asked, sorry. Hopefully all will be made clear as I'm quite shidizzled by that one. Hopefully it won't turn out to be anything too metaphysical, as that would be a shame.
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Jinx
5,894 posts
129 months
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hairykrishna said: There's no evidence or reason to believe that metabolism or aging would experience time dilation any differently than any other chemical process. Before this thread I'd never even heard anyone suggest it as a possibility. I would suspect the psychological impact of time dilation would be unnerving though probably not a major issue (ever read the Forever War?) I wonder what the double slit experiment looks like at close to light speed though  ?
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mattnunn
4,114 posts
30 months
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MiseryStreak said: Oops! Yes, I did read your post, but amongst all the others at once, and it does look like I have just repeated verbatim what you already asked, sorry. Hopefully all will be made clear as I'm quite shidizzled by that one. Hopefully it won't turn out to be anything too metaphysical, as that would be a shame. I think GV already has suggested the reaons that complex animate objects will not suffer time dilation in the same way as simple inanimate objects will.
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hairykrishna
8,976 posts
72 months
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mattnunn said: I think GV already has suggested the reaons that complex animate objects will not suffer time dilation in the same way as simple inanimate objects will. Has he? I've missed that. Gene Vincent said: You almost certainly have, but in a form you haven't appreciated the ramifications of.
More later. Ok.
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Greg66
1,528 posts
47 months
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hairykrishna said: Greg66 said: After all, the old saying "in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King" is probably rarely more true than when discussing theoretical physics on a car forum. There are few physicists on here I think - at least 3 I'm aware of. I'm a professional physicist, I do physics research at a university for a living, although I'm very much more an experimentalist than theorist. I've seen The Big Bang Theory. The experimentalists may think they have one eye, but the theoreticians don't share that view. 
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FarmyardPants
2,243 posts
87 months
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MiseryStreak said: This is easily the best thread I have ever read on PH. Even some of the bickering was fun. I can't help think that GV is deliberately arrogant on here as it starts some interesting asides with people trying to prove him wrong. Although he is a mathematician, rather than a scientist, so more accustomed to dealing with proofs than theories. I can't imagine he is as arrogant with his peers. Anyway, I was really interested in the biological element of time dilation. It was my understanding that as a person's motion approached c, it is the distance travelled that shortens, so that less time has passed for the person in motion. As less time has passed, for what reason would their metabolic rate speed up to counter any ageing paradox? I don't see this is a paradox either, anymore than successfully freezing someone would stall their ageing. I really need to hear more about this, and in particular, where are the biological distinctions drawn; would it apply to a virus or even an amino acid? I can't help but see this being a purely human phenomenon as an example of carbon chauvinism. I would also like the finite cosmos/infinite universe concept explained further. If there is no spacetime in the universe vacuum then how can its properties, and in particular, size be defined? I imagine that is a mathematical concept and would fall over the moment you tried to put it into words but if you could try. Is it a probable infinity? One in which the cosmos could expand in that direction, but might not? I can't imagine it as a physical thing (I have enough trouble with a 92B light year cosmos) and need help. Lastly, after reading all three pages, I felt it a bit unfair that Capt Bravz's excellent custard time travel joke went without a single laugh. It was genius. Have a  from me. On the subject of the distance shortening as one approaches velocity c, this is from an observer's perspective. SR is purely an observer-based phenomenon. From the observer's perspective, time as displayed by the traveller would appear to slow and the traveller would appear to gain mass (because energy directed at the traveller would have increasingly less effect on the traveller's velocity) until the traveller disappears between the event horizon after which the traveller would appear frozen in time, and the real traveller would be undetectable without an intermediate frame to relay signals. This is how I understand it.
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Bedazzled
4,068 posts
90 months
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FarmyardPants said: On the subject of the distance shortening as one approaches velocity c, this is from an observer's perspective. SR is purely an observer-based phenomenon. That's not correct, length contraction is actually experienced as a real physical phenomenon (albeit a mind-boggling one) within the frame, whereas time dilation is observed as a consequence by a third party in another frame.
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Gene Vincent
Original Poster
4,002 posts
27 months
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Bedazzled said: FarmyardPants said: On the subject of the distance shortening as one approaches velocity c, this is from an observer's perspective. SR is purely an observer-based phenomenon. That's not correct, length contraction is actually experienced as a real physical phenomenon (albeit a mind-boggling one) within the frame, whereas time dilation is observed as a consequence by a third party in another frame. No, no, no... it is only 'apparent to an outside viewer, you don't shrink/slim down in reality. BD, you are normally clear minded on such things, very unusual... hard day at the office, a quick beer and you'll right-side yourself again, don't get lost now, you have a good mind.
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Bedazzled
4,068 posts
90 months
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Damn, just when I thought I'd got my head around it... back to the drawing board. Ah well, I learn something every day! This is why I like these threads. 
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Greg66
1,528 posts
47 months
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Gene Vincent said: First, for Greene and the string advocates the Cosmos started in one shot, this finely balanced Cosmos formed in one attempt, this is the consequence of string theory mathematics, for me, a less close adherent of string theory, this Cosmos is simply too finely balanced to have been 'right' at the first attempt.
But I have to resolve that 'something' in the field maths and for me it is a result of the almost infinite attempts at a stable Cosmos, the maths allow this too.
The 'not a hole in one' postulation is not new, but the biggest stumbling block for us was the lack of remnants of the numerous failed starts, just like a cars engine that fails to start there had to be some 'soot' about from the moderately successful attempts... and lots of it.
It was postulated that this would be some sort of 'energy' that was either spent or non-interactive, the confirmation of huge amounts of Dark Energy (with remarkably similar properties to those hypothesised in the late 90s) has only bolstered my point of view, largely at the cost of the various competitive postulations including Multiverses. Reading this, just after having read about the anthropic principle, it occurs to me that whereas (to use an o level physics metaphor) Greene posits multiple universes in parallel, you posit them in series. Be that as it may, if you assign DE/DM to be the echo of previous failed attempts to get the big bang engine to turn over, should not you be able to calculate how many failed attempts there have been based upon the amount of DE/DM that is present in our universe? Edited to correct iPad autocorrection.
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Gene Vincent
Original Poster
4,002 posts
27 months
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Greg66 said: Reading this, just after having read about the anthropoid principle, it occurs to me that whereas (to use an o level physics metaphor) Greene posits multiple universes in parallel, you posit them in series.
Be that as it may, if you assign DE/DM to be the echo of previous failed attempts to get the big bang engine to turn over, should not you be able to calculate how many failed attempts there have been based upon the amount of DE/DM that is present in our universe?
That is nicely put. Not Dark Matter, this applies only to Dark Energy. Dark Matter has another likely cause.
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MiseryStreak
752 posts
76 months
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I have some questions about the multiverses in series theory, do these failed attempts ever actually exist? The reason I ask is if a Universe was created before our current one and its ingredients weren't quite right, so what? Once all of the energy of the Universe has been released it can't suddenly decide, 'Ooh it's a bit chilly this one, I'll go back inside' or 'f  k this, there's way too much antimatter, I'm out' etc. The energy has been released and cannot be destroyed so where does it go? Does it all go back into some metaphysical 'fields of potential' cauldron to be used again? As if it doesn't and it remains in the physical Universe, even if it that is as an infinitesimally small point with no extended dimensions, isn't that just this Universe? I love Brian Greene's books and I am a complete layman in this field, but I too think the multiverses in parallel idea is a crock of s  t. It's like a get out clause as it can be used to explain away anything that doesn't make sense in this Universe. 'Oh, yeah, I don't know what happened to that particle either I think it must have jumped across to the other place'. I'd love to be proved wrong, but I think it stinks. Gene, I take it you are not an advocate of M-Theory (as you mentioned your problems with string theory on which it is based)? If not what theory do you follow on the sub-fermion/boson scale nature of the Universe? I've always like strings, oscillations just made sense to me. I'm still waiting on the biological time dilation hypothesis. I was thinking about it last night and all I could come up with was that a biological organism has processes running in different inertial frames and that the metabolism and ageing process is affected differently than an inanimate object would be. I still don't like the idea though, and I don't see the point of it. What's the problem with a person ageing less when they have been travelling very fast? There is no twins paradox, it was solved without even using GR.
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