BMW 330ci fuel economy - how is it possible?

BMW 330ci fuel economy - how is it possible?

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Discussion

wheeljack

610 posts

255 months

Thursday 13th November 2008
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a_bread said:
wheeljack said:
BMW are not doing anything that other manufacturers haven't got the engineering capability to do (yes even lowly Weatherspoon's burger/Vernon Kaye/Weak-Tasteless-Lager Ford), however BMW have got the opportunity to pass the cost onto the customer and critically the economies of scale to put this stuff into their engines.
Surely that's equivalent to a Wetherspoon’s spokesman saying “yeah there’s nothing Heston Blumenthal can do that we can’t but he’s lucky that he’s got a load of rich clients willing to pay for it”.
That isn’t in itself a reason to object to praise being heaped on the Fat Duck.


wheeljack said:
Other OEMs have to do more with less, which is sometimes harder than just chucking money at a requirement and this can involve some rather clever engineering (sometimes more expensive upfront engineering but less product cost).
I suppose that's the equivalent of investing upfront on building an extra section of kitchen for automated potato slicing and chip frying in order to reduce the unit cost of meals.

But you're right they are simply playing to different sections of the market.
Perhaps these food analogies are really bloody retarded!

BMW have to play to the same well established and well known laws of physics that everybody else has to, and this is the constant everyone works to. Just because BMW pay Johnson Matthey more for a NOx cat, and Bosch more for a fuel injection system, and Unitech more for a variable flow oil pump before others doesn't mean that other OEMs haven't the ability to do the same (and they do in advanced research well before market). BMW usually bring this stuff to market quicker than others, but these others will often have some of these toys and gadgets in the pipeline for the next engine release and will have started the design and development 2-3-4 years before BMW release their latest engines (takes about 5 years to design & develop an engine).

a_bread

721 posts

185 months

Thursday 13th November 2008
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Alright then, I won't mention food, much as I love good food.

It seems as if you seek to detract from a what a manufacturer is achieving, when it exceeds what others are achieveing, by pointing out that: "the only difference is that they have actually done it and the others haven't yet, it's not that the others can't/won't".

Do you dislike a more rapid pace of innovation?

BOR

4,702 posts

255 months

Thursday 13th November 2008
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wheeljack said:
I actually quite admire BMW for what they do because they consistently hit the spot with their market. Also because their engines are smooth, powerful and they sound great. And as for massaging the figures, they are only getting around some rather ill-thought out legislation. However please can we not we not have this bullst that surrounds BMW about their superior engineering, because it is never that simple!
You've written quite a wierd, contradictory post. It's not as simple a picking up the phone and buying something of the shelf. In fact, there is a massive amount of engineering involved, to apply components so that they function in an engine. Anyone can buy a direct fuel injector off the shelf, and many do, but not everyone can engineer the combustion proccess to optimise that.

Also, where can you buy a magnesium cylinder block from ? Or a variable valve timing system from ? Or a light weight, lost-foam cylinderhead casting ? Or second-air-system integrated into the head ?

AVL ? Easy to knock something up on paper, harder to make it work in metal.

wheeljack

610 posts

255 months

Thursday 13th November 2008
quotequote all
a_bread said:
Alright then, I won't mention food, much as I love good food.

It seems as if you seek to detract from a what a manufacturer is achieving, when it exceeds what others are achieveing, by pointing out that: "the only difference is that they have actually done it and the others haven't yet, it's not that the others can't/won't".

Do you dislike a more rapid pace of innovation?
I have no wish to detract BMW because they are very good. However what I want to point out is that there is far more to the business of engine & vehicle engineering than a bunch of reported figures in a magazine or even those reported than the government. Also that there is a consequence and compromise associated with every decision made in engineering.

Perhaps I have a blasé attitude to some of these "innovations" because I'm surrounded by it every day (I work for a large independent engine consultancy that at one time or another has done work for everybody). I'm certainly not against innovation because it keeps me in a job, but I like clever and simple solutions that extract the most bang for buck! And sometimes it means holding back slightly, asking questions and finding out what's really going on.

wheeljack

610 posts

255 months

Thursday 13th November 2008
quotequote all
BOR said:
wheeljack said:
I actually quite admire BMW for what they do because they consistently hit the spot with their market. Also because their engines are smooth, powerful and they sound great. And as for massaging the figures, they are only getting around some rather ill-thought out legislation. However please can we not we not have this bullst that surrounds BMW about their superior engineering, because it is never that simple!
You've written quite a wierd, contradictory post. It's not as simple a picking up the phone and buying something of the shelf. In fact, there is a massive amount of engineering involved, to apply components so that they function in an engine. Anyone can buy a direct fuel injector off the shelf, and many do, but not everyone can engineer the combustion proccess to optimise that.

Also, where can you buy a magnesium cylinder block from ? Or a variable valve timing system from ? Or a light weight, lost-foam cylinderhead casting ? Or second-air-system integrated into the head ?

AVL ? Easy to knock something up on paper, harder to make it work in metal.
Yes I agree it is very contradictory, because this is a subject that is bloody hard to explain in a few paragraphs that tries to keep some sort of balance. And as I've said BMW has done some very good & clever stuff but as keeps being brought up here on this forum it doesn't mean others are behind or worse.

And yes I know it is never quite as easy as picking up somebody elses bits and bolting them together, I'm well aware of the headaches of system integration.

And whilst I do work for AVL, I have worked at Ford & Perkins on production engines from concept to production, so I'm well aware of some of the issues that arise from that.

otolith

56,085 posts

204 months

Thursday 13th November 2008
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carl_w said:
kambites said:
It's hard to separate the effect of weight and of aerodynamics on the basis of deceleration alone. A less aerodynamic car will decelerate faster but then so will a lighter one with the same aero. There must be more to it than that?

ETA: I'm not questioning whether you're right. I just think it's a stupid way to do it. smile
It is on a dyno -- aerodynamics doesn't come into it as the car is stationary!

I'm surprised they produce mpg figures in the absence of any aero drag. No wonder the extra urban figures are ridiculously high.
As someone already pointed out, the resistance offered by the dyno is calibrated to the actual resistance vs speed curve of the car, measured by coasting down in neutral.

You don't need to separate the effects of weight and aerodynamics, you know what the car weighs, if you know m and a you can calculate f, and f is all you need.

kambites

67,556 posts

221 months

Thursday 13th November 2008
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otolith said:
carl_w said:
kambites said:
It's hard to separate the effect of weight and of aerodynamics on the basis of deceleration alone. A less aerodynamic car will decelerate faster but then so will a lighter one with the same aero. There must be more to it than that?

ETA: I'm not questioning whether you're right. I just think it's a stupid way to do it. smile
It is on a dyno -- aerodynamics doesn't come into it as the car is stationary!

I'm surprised they produce mpg figures in the absence of any aero drag. No wonder the extra urban figures are ridiculously high.
As someone already pointed out, the resistance offered by the dyno is calibrated to the actual resistance vs speed curve of the car, measured by coasting down in neutral.

You don't need to separate the effects of weight and aerodynamics, you know what the car weighs, if you know m and a you can calculate f, and f is all you need.
Ah, so they weigh the car as well? That makes more sense.

carl_w

9,179 posts

258 months

Thursday 13th November 2008
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otolith said:
As someone already pointed out, the resistance offered by the dyno is calibrated to the actual resistance vs speed curve of the car, measured by coasting down in neutral..
Ah, I didn't spot that bit. So they must measure the coast-down on the road, right? Then calibrate the dyno resistance to that?

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

198 months

Friday 14th November 2008
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madou said:
Welshbeef said:
Thats because this new 330i 272bhp 39.x mpg combined engine only came out in Sept08.
Are you off form today, or is Parker's wrong ?
http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications/0,,1156___bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-TEkwOA%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html


As you can see the current 330i is 272hp as shown by the BMW site.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

198 months

Friday 14th November 2008
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carl_w said:
Welshbeef said:
You seen the MPG for the 320i/318i? given the price difference between petrol & diesel these is now nothing in it/in the petrols favour. However its a different driving style low end thumping torque vs hanging the the engine out to dry on high revs - very nice in a I6.
This is true, except the 320i and 318i are I4.
http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications/0,,1156___bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-TEkwOA%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html

Just seen on here the combined figs and are as follows;-

318i 47.9mpg I4 Power 143bhp
320i 46.3mpg I6 Power 170bhp
325i 39.8mpg I6 Power 218bhp
330i 39.2mpg I6 Power 272bhp
335i 31.0mpg I6 Power 306bhp


carl_w

9,179 posts

258 months

Friday 14th November 2008
quotequote all
http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications...

320i ES

Cylinders/valves 4/16 Tyre size front 205/55 R16
Capacity (cc) 1995 Tyre size rear 205/55 R16
Stroke/Bore (mm) 90/84
Max output (kW/hp/rpm) 125/170/6700

Same for the 320i SE and 320i Sport

Edited by carl_w on Friday 14th November 09:47

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

198 months

Friday 14th November 2008
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Stand corrected - when did BMW drop the 2.0ltr I6?

otolith

56,085 posts

204 months

Friday 14th November 2008
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carl_w said:
Ah, I didn't spot that bit. So they must measure the coast-down on the road, right? Then calibrate the dyno resistance to that?
As I understand it, yes. The whole procedure is detailed somewhere on the web, but digging through all of the related documents to find it is a pain. It's worth reading if you've got time to find it, though, if only to see how unrealistically gentle the accelerations used are.

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

246 months

Friday 14th November 2008
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Welshbeef said:
Just seen on here the combined figs and are as follows;-

318i 47.9mpg I4 Power 143bhp
320i 46.3mpg I6 Power 170bhp
325i 39.8mpg I6 Power 218bhp
330i 39.2mpg I6 Power 272bhp
335i 31.0mpg I6 Power 306bhp
That's a useful table and confirms the pure comedy of these "official" figures. In the real world the mpg performance of the cars will produce a much narrower range, slanted towards the lower end.

Our old friends the laws of physics dictate that as each car weighs more or less the same and offers similar wind resistance it will take about the same amount of energy to accelerate any of them and keep them cruising. Hence similar mpg, give or take a bit of heat and pumping.

matt uk

17,696 posts

200 months

Friday 14th November 2008
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Welshbeef said:
Stand corrected - when did BMW drop the 2.0ltr I6?
I think that the I6 was last seen in the e46. New model saw the 2.0 move to a 4-pot

Hodgson 100

120 posts

213 months

Friday 14th November 2008
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I agree that the regeneraton of the nox cats is no free lunch but the benefits out weigh the penaly imho.
The regeneration strategy used on the bmw requires the engine to run at lambda 0.9 during this process now bear in mind that these engines run at lambda 2.5 when in stratified/lean burn mode means that the gains are worth pursueing. The regeneration process does not have to wait until the cat is full and it can be done under hard accellertion when the fuel mixture is rich anyway so the effects of this process are minimised.It can just keep regenerating bit by bit as it goes along it does not have to do it all in one go.
It will be intresting to see what the other manufacturers do to hit the eu5 limits.

dave_s13

13,814 posts

269 months

Friday 14th November 2008
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RobM77 said:
captainzep said:
Pah. Beemer fuel efficiency.

I drove from Kent to Wales the other day and got 36mpg from the old Saab 9-5 Aero 2.3 250bhp turbo engine.

Got bored around Bristol though.

Some 'spirited' driving saw this average dip to about 31mpg...

But still.
That's because it's a turbo, you were off boost on the motorway. What BMW are doing is achieving the mpg with a normally aspirated engine, which is a whole different ballgame.
I'm frckin bored of my 95 aero after 13months and now having wet dreams about e39 540 sport touring cloud9

ompletely unrelated to this thread like smile

anyone want to buy a perfectly good 95 aero estate?

SJobson

12,972 posts

264 months

Friday 14th November 2008
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matt uk said:
Welshbeef said:
Stand corrected - when did BMW drop the 2.0ltr I6?
I think that the I6 was last seen in the e46. New model saw the 2.0 move to a 4-pot
Even in the E46, the 320i was a 2.2 I6. The 318i was a 2.0 I4. The last 2.0 I6 was in the E36 320i/early E39 520i.

In 2002 I had an E46 318i automatic for 2 weeks. Drove it down to Sussex and back round the M25 and on A-roads, averaged 39mpg driving economically but not too slowly. With diesel currently being 15%+ more expensive than petrol, you'd have to manage 45mpg to beat a 6yr old petrol car with an auto box, on which the only clever economy measure was Valvetronic (actually, pretty f---ing clever so that's probably a bit demeaning). With a decoupled alternator, direct injection etc, I see no reason why 50mpg isn't feasible; fuel use is down to the weight of the car and powertrain losses as well as engine efficiency on part throttle. DI has improved part-throttle efficiency immensely, as did Valvetronic, so in similar use a small-engined 3-series will use a similar amount of fuel to a bigger engined one. All good, until you can't resist exercising your right foot wink

BTW, I was surprised to see over 40mpg from my E39 540iA Touring today. I accidentally reset the fuel computer rather than average speed reading on the M40, and at my destination discovered how efficient I'd been biggrin

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

198 months

Friday 28th November 2008
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pioneer said:
UPDATE - as promised I am updating a real world MPG on the new E92 330 Coupe with Efficient Dynamics.

94 miles of fast A road (A49), quite a few roundabouts and 30-40mph limits so not a steady cruise. I was not trying to drive as economically as possible but was not thrashing it and it returned 41mpg.

I think that is bloody good for a 272bhp petrol engine. It could have done 43-44 but I was overtaking a few slow moving vehicles and making good progress.

The wife is returning 28mpg but this is all in town in rush hour.
Highly impressive 272bhp & 41mpg when categorically not hanging around!!! Dont they say these days with the Petrol to diesel price of fuel gap that you need 10mpg more to make the diesel worth while? 330d 245bhp does 49.6mpg combined so thats bang on 10mpg more than the 272 330i. Hard decision which to choose - totally different drives Im sure but isnt it great to have choice of 2 fantastic power plants - their only drawback is their high list price ...

Keep posting. Also would be good to hear what you can get if you really try hard on an economy run, we now know its a genuine 40mpg+ combined car but how good is it in eco mode?

carl_w

9,179 posts

258 months

Saturday 29th November 2008
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Welshbeef said:
Highly impressive 272bhp & 41mpg when categorically not hanging around!!! Dont they say these days with the Petrol to diesel price of fuel gap that you need 10mpg more to make the diesel worth while?
No, 10% more. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if diesel is 10% more expensive than petrol, then you need to be getting 10% more mpg to break even.