Drivetrain pros/cons and future trends?

Drivetrain pros/cons and future trends?

Author
Discussion

TheDeuce

21,865 posts

67 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
GT9 said:
raspy said:
Right, so if I want to drive a 5 metre long EV with space for 5 people and their luggage and can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds, I'm going to still need a dual motor EV in years to come.
5 people, sure, but that's not much different to the choice of modern ICEs (i.e. 4WD).
As an exercise we could all try to nominate a sub 4 second 2WD car that can carry 5 people with luggage. smile
I don't think there is one, at least not a modified example.

And if there is, I wouldn't want to drive it.

ChocolateFrog

25,593 posts

174 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
It genuinely surprises me how much traction mine can muster even in soaking wet conditions. As long as you've not got any steering lock on and the road surface is generally sound it'll put all 430hp down from a dig in seemingly any weather. Whether that continues as the tyres wear out will be interesting to see.

FWD EVs should really be reserved for the very lower end of the market, Dacia Spring and the like.

GT9

6,764 posts

173 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
I don't think there is one, at least not a modified example.

And if there is, I wouldn't want to drive it.
AMG and BMW M might have a few choice words for you!

There aren't many though.

TheDeuce

21,865 posts

67 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
GT9 said:
TheDeuce said:
I don't think there is one, at least not a modified example.

And if there is, I wouldn't want to drive it.
AMG and BMW M might have a few choice words for you!

There aren't many though.
What do they have that can carry 5 people and luggage and do a sub 4 seconds 60 sprint? An old M5 touring - but were the rwd variants that quick..?

740EVTORQUES

443 posts

2 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
GT9 said:
TheDeuce said:
I don't think there is one, at least not a modified example.

And if there is, I wouldn't want to drive it.
AMG and BMW M might have a few choice words for you!

There aren't many though.
What do they have that can carry 5 people and luggage and do a sub 4 seconds 60 sprint? An old M5 touring - but were the rwd variants that quick..?
And what’s the fuel consumption and depreciation on an M5 touring or RS6 avant?

In many ways it’s in the performance sector that EV has ICE soundly beaten.

It’s in the small, light affordable space that the challenge is much harder.

Elon Musk was smart to go for the high performance luxury market first to establish the credentials of the EV powertrain.

CG2020UK

1,556 posts

41 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
740EVTORQUES said:
And what’s the fuel consumption and depreciation on an M5 touring or RS6 avant?

In many ways it’s in the performance sector that EV has ICE soundly beaten.

It’s in the small, light affordable space that the challenge is much harder.

Elon Musk was smart to go for the high performance luxury market first to establish the credentials of the EV powertrain.
Interested as to what EV is suppose to be a realistic alternative to an RS6 or M5?

I’ll certainly have to add it to my watchlist!

CABC

5,600 posts

102 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
I don’t want my taxes subsidising dual motor hyper EVs!

My ICE cars have been strangled for a fraction of a gram of co2 over last 20years. 2tonnes plus and 5m at sub 6 sec? User can pay full price. maybe more…

Olivera

7,191 posts

240 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
740EVTORQUES said:
In many ways it’s in the performance sector that EV has ICE soundly beaten.
Really? If I take Evo magazine as an example, they are still extremely lukewarm to any kind of performance EV. The latest Taycan Turbo Weissach package got 3.5 stars. They've still not even nominated an EV for their car of the year, never mind winning it. Performance cars have for many decades moved on from just outright performance as the main barometer, using a Golf R, M3 or 570S fully is more than enough performance for the road.

For me it's the opposite, EVs are more useful as a replacement for practical and ubiquitous every day vehicles, where they certainly do have worthwhile advantages.

SWoll

18,489 posts

259 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
CG2020UK said:
Interested as to what EV is suppose to be a realistic alternative to an RS6 or M5?

I’ll certainly have to add it to my watchlist!
Porsche Taycan Turbo/Turbo S. Audi RS etron GT.

dvs_dave

8,667 posts

226 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
I suspect it’ll settle on cheap EV’s being single motor RWD as it’s cheaper to engineer and package a drive axle that doesn’t have to also steer, deal with emergency braking forces, or have to work with crumple zones and crash structures. Only reason we see cheap FWD EV’s at the moment is because to save overall development cost they’re based on existing FWD ICE platforms. The VW ID range vs the e-Golf is testament to this approach.

Mid to higher end longer range will be dual motor AWD, with each axle optimized for different efficiencies for cruising, acceleration, regen, etc. I also understand that a big reason long range versions of EV are usually AWD, is because it reduces rolling resistance more than it consumes power by slightly driving the axle not in use than to simply let it freewheel.

And then the high end and performance preferred layouts will be tri-motor (2-rear, one front), or quad-motor setups.

Pure FWD platforms I think will disappear outside of niche vehicle formats where FWD packaging is worth it for a low load floor, such as for vans, MPV’s etc.

GT9

6,764 posts

173 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
What do they have that can carry 5 people and luggage and do a sub 4 seconds 60 sprint? An old M5 touring - but were the rwd variants that quick..?
I was thinking of the last of the line E63/M5 saloon cars that had 2WD and/or the ones that you could switch to 2WD mode.
But yeah, clutching at straws.
The switch to 4WD for 550+ bhp cars was inevitable.

CG2020UK

1,556 posts

41 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
SWoll said:
CG2020UK said:
Interested as to what EV is suppose to be a realistic alternative to an RS6 or M5?

I’ll certainly have to add it to my watchlist!
Porsche Taycan Turbo/Turbo S. Audi RS etron GT.
Surely very few are taking a more expensive and less practical Taycan Turbo S over the BMW M5. Not to mention an M5 can do the actual performance side of things with track days.

£60k more for a Taycan Turbo S vs an M5 realistically means we are talking different ends of the market here. Even a M5 CS is cheaper and a Evo car of the year. You’re up into 911 Turbo or GT3 levels at this price which isn’t fair on the Taycan.

The Taycan 4S I drove isn't a patch to drive on the M5 base car. Very much more M-lite than M car so isn’t price comparative as outgunned.

Not to mention a Taycan is more M3/4 or RS4 rival personally in size which brings up even more money savings.

Surely no one driving a Taycan Turbo S thinks then have an M5 or RS6 rival confused

Edited by CG2020UK on Sunday 28th April 19:21

740EVTORQUES

443 posts

2 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
CG2020UK said:
740EVTORQUES said:
And what’s the fuel consumption and depreciation on an M5 touring or RS6 avant?

In many ways it’s in the performance sector that EV has ICE soundly beaten.

It’s in the small, light affordable space that the challenge is much harder.

Elon Musk was smart to go for the high performance luxury market first to establish the credentials of the EV powertrain.
Interested as to what EV is suppose to be a realistic alternative to an RS6 or M5?

I’ll certainly have to add it to my watchlist!
KIA EV6 GT

Seats 5, decent boot, goes like s**t off a shovel (0-60 3.4 secs), has sporty tyres, adaptive suspension and an electronic diff, pus drift control.

It’s well worth a try if that’s what you want.

Olivera

7,191 posts

240 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
dvs_dave said:
I suspect it’ll settle on cheap EV’s being single motor RWD as it’s cheaper to engineer and package a drive axle that doesn’t have to also steer, deal with emergency braking forces, or have to work with crumple zones and crash structures. Only reason we see cheap FWD EV’s at the moment is because to save overall development cost they’re based on existing FWD ICE platforms.
Um:

Forethcoming all new MINI EV, basis for the next decade or more of the 3 and 5 door hatch line - FWD

Forethcoming all new Renault 5 (& Alpine A290) EV - FWD

All new Fiat 500 EV - FWD

TheDeuce

21,865 posts

67 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
GT9 said:
TheDeuce said:
What do they have that can carry 5 people and luggage and do a sub 4 seconds 60 sprint? An old M5 touring - but were the rwd variants that quick..?
I was thinking of the last of the line E63/M5 saloon cars that had 2WD and/or the ones that you could switch to 2WD mode.
But yeah, clutching at straws.
The switch to 4WD for 550+ bhp cars was inevitable.
That's the thing, to be sub 4 seconds in a large car you need a lot of power, which in turn requires AWD. The bigger rwd super saloons hit their limit back when sub 5 seconds was considered very quick.

And in EV terms, a 550hp car is going to easily out perform a similar sized 550hp ice car because it has a near flat torque curve, the power lands instantly. Mine has AWD but on anything other than a warm road with warm tyres, it'll spin up the fronts and occasionally skip at the back if you put your foot down - it would be hilariously bad if I only had one driven axle.

TheDeuce

21,865 posts

67 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
740EVTORQUES said:
CG2020UK said:
740EVTORQUES said:
And what’s the fuel consumption and depreciation on an M5 touring or RS6 avant?

In many ways it’s in the performance sector that EV has ICE soundly beaten.

It’s in the small, light affordable space that the challenge is much harder.

Elon Musk was smart to go for the high performance luxury market first to establish the credentials of the EV powertrain.
Interested as to what EV is suppose to be a realistic alternative to an RS6 or M5?

I’ll certainly have to add it to my watchlist!
KIA EV6 GT

Seats 5, decent boot, goes like s**t off a shovel (0-60 3.4 secs), has sporty tyres, adaptive suspension and an electronic diff, pus drift control.

It’s well worth a try if that’s what you want.
And each time you use the power it'll cost an extra few pence. In the other two cars a spirited b-road blast costs £20 a go...

Apparently ice is more fun than performance EV, but I've always thought the 'extra' fun has to be held against the huge extra cost of having that fun each time you indulge!

CG2020UK

1,556 posts

41 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
740EVTORQUES said:
CG2020UK said:
740EVTORQUES said:
And what’s the fuel consumption and depreciation on an M5 touring or RS6 avant?

In many ways it’s in the performance sector that EV has ICE soundly beaten.

It’s in the small, light affordable space that the challenge is much harder.

Elon Musk was smart to go for the high performance luxury market first to establish the credentials of the EV powertrain.
Interested as to what EV is suppose to be a realistic alternative to an RS6 or M5?

I’ll certainly have to add it to my watchlist!
KIA EV6 GT

Seats 5, decent boot, goes like s**t off a shovel (0-60 3.4 secs), has sporty tyres, adaptive suspension and an electronic diff, pus drift control.

It’s well worth a try if that’s what you want.
Car and driver do a brilliant test every year.

Certainly wouldn’t be considering an EV6 GT anywhere near the level of a M car for performance. Very surprised it’s suggested as obvious driving it.
https://youtu.be/k6cDQvBa35g?si=ehuxvy2s545_zpky
See 4min54.

For example in 2023 video the I4 M50 can’t even make power for a full lap and gets beat by the M240i. Certainly dents any performance car claims.
https://youtu.be/fjOlqwzDE5k?si=6erLu7q-zd0kwTJm

Lucid Air Sapphire shows you how an EV should do it but then again it’s double the price of an M5 at £200k so certainly no rival.

TheDeuce

21,865 posts

67 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
CG2020UK said:
Car and driver do a brilliant test every year.

Certainly wouldn’t be considering an EV6 GT anywhere near the level of a M car for performance. Very surprised it’s suggested as obvious driving it.
https://youtu.be/k6cDQvBa35g?si=ehuxvy2s545_zpky
See 4min54.

For example in 2023 video the I4 M50 can’t even make power for a full lap and gets beat by the M240i. Certainly dents any performance car claims.
https://youtu.be/fjOlqwzDE5k?si=6erLu7q-zd0kwTJm

Lucid Air Sapphire shows you how an EV should do it but then again it’s double the price of an M5 at £200k so certainly no rival.
You're comparing these cars based on track performance - most such cars never see a track. In the real world an M3 CS wouldn't shame an i4 M50 or the EV6 on any road, at least not until 120mph+, which is unrealistic.

In terms of a drivers car for the road, if you want a fast machine you're going to struggle to beat the more performance orientated EV's.

In terms of outright dynamic performance, whilst the i4 can't lap at the pace of an M3 CS, if you show it a corner in the real world it can generate almost as much mechanical grip and lateral g force, and upon exiting the corner will put its power down quicker. These aren't cars that are only fast in a straight line, don't fall for that generalisation... The first wave of performance EV's are on par with ICE. Wait for the second generation..

Olivera

7,191 posts

240 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
In terms of a drivers car for the road, if you want a fast machine you're going to struggle to beat the more performance orientated EV's.
An EV driver's car is an oxymoron. Once again a mag like Evo (that does significantly cover 'performance' EVs) still considers them mostly underwhelming.

TheDeuce

21,865 posts

67 months

Sunday 28th April
quotequote all
Olivera said:
TheDeuce said:
In terms of a drivers car for the road, if you want a fast machine you're going to struggle to beat the more performance orientated EV's.
An EV driver's car is an oxymoron. Once again a mag like Evo (that does significantly cover 'performance' EVs) still considers them mostly underwhelming.
Well I'm a driver, I've had endless high performance ICE cars, I like driving and experiencing the capabilities of an performance ICE too.

To claim an EV drivers car is an oxymoron, is a moronic thing to say - because it's obviously not true as an outright statement of fact. It's subjective.

As a driver, I appreciate the capability and efficiency of EV performance, it gets done what ICE can do but in a far neater way and far less crudely. As an engineer, that speaks to me - it's a better designed machine, capable of doing the job it was designed to do more competently than what went before. That's valid, even if others want to be more mechanically involved in the process of getting the best from a compromised ICE powertrain for their kicks.

I also expect Evo are well aware that their remaining mag buying audience are 95%+ not fans of electric cars and tailor their journalistic stance as such.