EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
BricktopST205 said:
Tracker69 said:
44 tonne EV trucks? 43 tonnes for the truck with batteries and 1 tonne left for the payload?
I note that the Renault 18 tonne D Wide ZE has an operating range of up to 112 miles and is available to order now.
112 miles, wow! Chocolate teapot anyone?
Yeah it is totally unviable in so many ways i could go on for days. Like company car drivers are lot of these useless trucks are getting subbed by tax payers money. I note that the Renault 18 tonne D Wide ZE has an operating range of up to 112 miles and is available to order now.
112 miles, wow! Chocolate teapot anyone?
It's just another angle on the argument that there is no single solution for every application and use case.
otolith said:
There seems to be an idea that transport policy needs to be written around edge cases. The idea that you can't decarbonise mass car ownership because some people will find it less convenient for 1% of the journeys made just isn't a consideration. I don't think it would be a consideration even if it meant that 1% of journeys became impossible by car.
Some posters here need to read the above a few times to let it sink in.
braddo said:
otolith said:
I don't think it would be a consideration even if it meant that 1% of journeys became impossible by car.
Some posters here need to read the above a few times to let it sink in.
It’s all a little communist to suggest that it’s fine for these journeys to become impossible through enforcement.
It’s all moot anyway as there are plenty of EVs than can do 200 miles or more in one hit.
Edited by LivLL on Wednesday 8th May 12:24
Edited by LivLL on Wednesday 8th May 12:25
DonkeyApple said:
FiF said:
Unreal said:
I was quite surprised by an earlier p st saying that around 70% of drivers had off road parking. Seemed to be backed up in this article (which I haven't read in full yet).
https://www.transportxtra.com/publications/parking...
These are a summary of the figures, different analysis to the above, it used OS digital mapping.https://www.transportxtra.com/publications/parking...
The criteria was residences which either had space for off road parking now, or the potential to create a space for a vehicle the size of a Ford Fiesta adjacent to the property.
Note that doesn't include residences where there may be off road parking but that is positioned such that it may not be possible to arrange a home charging facility, eg HMOs, blocks of apartments, affordable housing where spaces are provided in shared areas somewhere within a development.
The other thing that needs to be pointed out is that for example London is an outlier not just in the figures, but firstly because the public transport system provision there and secondly 40+% of the households don't have a car.
Even at 50% of households you can see that it is going to take at least two decades to satiate that part of the market.
The real near term issue for outer zone street parking isn't EVs or the national EV policy at all but their local council policies but they can elect replacements that represent them if needs be.
What is also not going to happen is the converting of these residential streets to EV charging bays because you'd slash the space available for car parking but also each charger would only have one customer a day and that customer may not even be buying anything so the only way it can work commercially is to charge based on the use of the parking space. Not a single resident is going to accept having to pay to park on their residential street obviously.
Such households must patiently wait for the destination charging infrastructure to be created for them so they charge their cars when they are parked elsewhere not at home. Lots of work to be done in that regard but it's a cost and problem for employers, retailers and car manufacturers not something that should be troubling the taxpayer's pocket.
Equally don't want to see taxpayer money used to set it up.
However although two decades feels like a long time, and is, there needs to be thought given to how the change can be eased for the future so that there is a plan and it appears nobody is really thinking about it.
Such as how to deal with the wild west approach to pricing.
If on street facilities aren't going to work then there needs to be room provided for charging stations to give access within reasonable distance of residential areas. Relying on Sainsbury's car park setup isn't going to cut it.
Then if you have a set of spaces for a local area how do you stop the selfish from plugging in and walking home leaving it overnight, say.
Before anyone piles on, this is nit in any way saying, this is a situation as it stands, therefore the wholesale move towards electrification is therefore doomed, far from it. Merely identifying challenges that can be met with sufficient will and guidance from the powers that be.
CheesecakeRunner said:
Tracker69 said:
wibble
Hey Tracker69, welcome to Pistonheads. Tell us, how did you find PH and what made you register today, what do you drive, and what made you dive straight into one of the most contentious threads on the forum with the usual trolling posts?
edit- if you are an alias get stuck in lol
Edited by MightyBadger on Wednesday 8th May 12:54
LivLL said:
Whereas other among us would quite like the freedom of choice to be able to drive 200 miles even if that is an “edge case” despite being done by hundreds of thousands of drivers every year.
It’s all a little communist to suggest that it’s fine for these journeys to become impossible through enforcement.
It’s all moot anyway as there are plenty of EVs than can do 200 miles or more in one hit.
Yup. Just consider 10 years ago compared to today. We have a reasonable choice of EVs on sale in 2024 and that's only really the third year of meaningful sales. You can buy a fair priced EV that can cover 200 miles in a sitting. You might have to moderate your pace, secure destination charging or stop briefly to bang 50 miles in but those aren't things that stop the EV from working perfectly fine. A 500 mile drive is even doable it just will take longer and you might decide instead to split it with an overnight stay. It’s all a little communist to suggest that it’s fine for these journeys to become impossible through enforcement.
It’s all moot anyway as there are plenty of EVs than can do 200 miles or more in one hit.
Edited by LivLL on Wednesday 8th May 12:24
Edited by LivLL on Wednesday 8th May 12:25
The uncomfortable reality for some is that in 2024, a decade before new ICE sales end and potentially 2 decades before people seriously have to face switching to an EV the product already works in the small, affluent and electricity ubiquitous U.K. market. Products like Tesla even plan how to complete the journey should someone genuinely not be able to work it out themselves.
And this is all without anyone being told to buy an EV. They are 100% personal choice.
The irony is that those who have allowed themselves to get whipped up into a panic by media content are probably the same people who own tea towels and mugs that say 'keep calm' on them.
The same people are possibly a little confused and thinking that when they do eventually switch to an EV that on their longer drives they will be having to stop with everyone else at singular charging points such as motorway services and not appreciating that instead they'll be able to exit almost any motorway junction and find a charger at a retail car park. They also possibly aren't appreciating that the jobs of today where employers expect a member of staff to drive 200+ miles in a day won't exist if the tool they must use isn't time efficient. Just look at how the role of the travelling salesman has evaporated since the 80s. Not because the car cannot cover the distance but because it has been rapidly outcompeted by superior technology for that particular task.
People just need to stop panicking and stop being drones to third party agendas. Kick back, relax and just wait and while doing so enjoy whatever car they want to use and what works best for them. It's insane for people to ge uinely be arguing this is some kind of assault on their personal freedom. What it is, is a total waste of their time.
the issue i personally think is that as a tax paying worker it is my choice of vehicle i drive and spend my money on. BUT the uk gvmt are pushing this green biullshgit EV's as being the way forward and trying to force everyone into them but how do we charge millions of ev's overnight when we cannot supply enough electricity? the ridiiculous cost of a new EV agaoinst an ice car - normally 50% more but alot more depreciation and the life of an ev? no one really knows i am aware the earlier vehicles would last 7-8 years the new ones possibly longer but i cannot imagine many being around in 8 years time doing 20k miles per year.
Do Joe Public think that the cost of charging an EV will stay at £7 per night for a 20-80% charge??
Yes there is a market for these vehciles especially in cities etc but not for me. i will enjoy my disiesel while i can
Do Joe Public think that the cost of charging an EV will stay at £7 per night for a 20-80% charge??
Yes there is a market for these vehciles especially in cities etc but not for me. i will enjoy my disiesel while i can
LivLL said:
braddo said:
otolith said:
I don't think it would be a consideration even if it meant that 1% of journeys became impossible by car.
Some posters here need to read the above a few times to let it sink in.
It’s all a little communist to suggest that it’s fine for these journeys to become impossible through enforcement.
It’s all moot anyway as there are plenty of EVs than can do 200 miles or more in one hit.
king up its own planet is an inherently communist position. If maintaining your freedom of choice to run an ICE imposes negative consequences on everybody, is whether to allow that a question addressed by capitalist or communist ideology? The evidence from communist countries does not suggest that protection of the environment has ever been high on their agenda.(The arguments about whether emitting CO2 is indeed f
king up the planet is largely moot, because these decisions are being made in the context of being convinced that it is)GT9 said:
sturge7878 said:
It’s not just Ford though is it. Selling at a loss is simply not a viable long term strategy. Ford and Stellantis may currently be the most vocal, but you can guarantee they won’t be the only manufacturers to start restricting their supply if they start incurring losses due to some badly designed legislation.
The consumer simply does not want EVs. The fleet consumer only buys them due to the considerable tax subsidies.
And yet some of the more dynamic legacy manufacturers are ahead of the curve.The consumer simply does not want EVs. The fleet consumer only buys them due to the considerable tax subsidies.
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/united-kingdom/arti...
Adapt or die.
Overall, we are not going to meet the 22% of sales target. The only outcome, as Ford say, is a restriction on ICE sales. That applies across most manufacturers. Most of them face the same choices.
That some, such as BMW have manged to achieve higher, isnt an example of adapt or die, just managed to snatch a bigger slice of that market in the short term. Good work nonetheless. However, if everybody "adapted" as you put it. the end result across the uk fleet in terms of sales is no different. Ie, overall vehicle sales decline. They have to, there is no other potential remotely feasible outcome. Any other outcome requires a rapid rise in demand.
Which has the perverse outcome of reducing the number of older vehicles, the more polluting ones, being scrapped.
The manufactuers, have limited ability to create demand. I accept they have some influence, but certainly not a lot.
garypotter said:
the issue i personally think is that as a tax paying worker it is my choice of vehicle i drive and spend my money on. BUT the uk gvmt are pushing this green biullshgit EV's as being the way forward and trying to force everyone into them but how do we charge millions of ev's overnight when we cannot supply enough electricity? the ridiiculous cost of a new EV agaoinst an ice car - normally 50% more but alot more depreciation and the life of an ev? no one really knows i am aware the earlier vehicles would last 7-8 years the new ones possibly longer but i cannot imagine many being around in 8 years time doing 20k miles per year.
Do Joe Public think that the cost of charging an EV will stay at £7 per night for a 20-80% charge??
Yes there is a market for these vehciles especially in cities etc but not for me. i will enjoy my disiesel while i can
"House!"Do Joe Public think that the cost of charging an EV will stay at £7 per night for a 20-80% charge??
Yes there is a market for these vehciles especially in cities etc but not for me. i will enjoy my disiesel while i can
garypotter said:
the issue i personally think is that as a tax paying worker it is my choice of vehicle i drive and spend my money on. BUT the uk gvmt are pushing this green biullshgit EV's as being the way forward and trying to force everyone into them but how do we charge millions of ev's overnight when we cannot supply enough electricity? the ridiiculous cost of a new EV agaoinst an ice car - normally 50% more but alot more depreciation and the life of an ev? no one really knows i am aware the earlier vehicles would last 7-8 years the new ones possibly longer but i cannot imagine many being around in 8 years time doing 20k miles per year.
Do Joe Public think that the cost of charging an EV will stay at £7 per night for a 20-80% charge??
Yes there is a market for these vehciles especially in cities etc but not for me. i will enjoy my disiesel while i can
When you consider the average daily mileage of the U.K. then you realise that the overnight electricity demand isn't going to be an issue. What you're actually looking at is millions of EVs just grazing for an hour or two topping back up to 80% having only done a handful of miles that day. This night demand is not only easily catered for but will make the grid more efficient as the current low demand for energy at night causes inefficiencies. We're also migrating away from core fossil fuel on demand generation to using more wind generation which we have no control over so when it is produced at night there is no market for it which will be solved by the storage systems dumped on millions of driveways. Do Joe Public think that the cost of charging an EV will stay at £7 per night for a 20-80% charge??
Yes there is a market for these vehciles especially in cities etc but not for me. i will enjoy my disiesel while i can
Meanwhile, just consider how dangerous and crippling to the U.K. economy our total dependency on the value of the USD and the OPEC controlled price of oil is? The economic gains from weakening the need to peg the GBP to the USD and to also suck BRIC and OPEC balls for oil are manifest. The irony here is that EVs and renewables deliver the U.K. a freedom that so many have been demanding ever since the end of Empire.
And here's the other thing, no one is forcing you to buy an EV. Why are so many people so convinced that there is some imaginary force out there that is demanding they purchase an EV? You can keep your car, I don't get why you'd make out that you can't?
monkfish1 said:
GT9 said:
sturge7878 said:
It’s not just Ford though is it. Selling at a loss is simply not a viable long term strategy. Ford and Stellantis may currently be the most vocal, but you can guarantee they won’t be the only manufacturers to start restricting their supply if they start incurring losses due to some badly designed legislation.
The consumer simply does not want EVs. The fleet consumer only buys them due to the considerable tax subsidies.
And yet some of the more dynamic legacy manufacturers are ahead of the curve.The consumer simply does not want EVs. The fleet consumer only buys them due to the considerable tax subsidies.
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/united-kingdom/arti...
Adapt or die.
Overall, we are not going to meet the 22% of sales target. The only outcome, as Ford say, is a restriction on ICE sales. That applies across most manufacturers. Most of them face the same choices.
That some, such as BMW have manged to achieve higher, isnt an example of adapt or die, just managed to snatch a bigger slice of that market in the short term. Good work nonetheless. However, if everybody "adapted" as you put it. the end result across the uk fleet in terms of sales is no different. Ie, overall vehicle sales decline. They have to, there is no other potential remotely feasible outcome. Any other outcome requires a rapid rise in demand.
Which has the perverse outcome of reducing the number of older vehicles, the more polluting ones, being scrapped.
The manufactuers, have limited ability to create demand. I accept they have some influence, but certainly not a lot.
1. Manufacturers are forced to work out how to make profit selling electric cars (price, supply chain, desirability) rather than just copping out and selling ICE because it’s easy
2. They already had to do the above by 2035 but this just avoids a cliff edge.
3. For air quality reasons I’m all for getting older diesels off the roads but if the objective is reducing CO2 (which it is) replacing an older petrol with a new one does f all because the efficiency of combustion engines has long since entered the realm of diminishing returns.
Fastdruid said:
braddo said:
Fastdruid said:
I'm going to write some utter nonsense:
6000 miles per year could be 0 miles for 359 days of the year and 1000 miles for 6 of them or it could be only using the car once a week (~115Miles/day) or once a week only in when the weather is a bit nice (~240Miles/day) and anything in between.
EFA6000 miles per year could be 0 miles for 359 days of the year and 1000 miles for 6 of them or it could be only using the car once a week (~115Miles/day) or once a week only in when the weather is a bit nice (~240Miles/day) and anything in between.
D4rez said:
monkfish1 said:
GT9 said:
sturge7878 said:
It’s not just Ford though is it. Selling at a loss is simply not a viable long term strategy. Ford and Stellantis may currently be the most vocal, but you can guarantee they won’t be the only manufacturers to start restricting their supply if they start incurring losses due to some badly designed legislation.
The consumer simply does not want EVs. The fleet consumer only buys them due to the considerable tax subsidies.
And yet some of the more dynamic legacy manufacturers are ahead of the curve.The consumer simply does not want EVs. The fleet consumer only buys them due to the considerable tax subsidies.
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/united-kingdom/arti...
Adapt or die.
Overall, we are not going to meet the 22% of sales target. The only outcome, as Ford say, is a restriction on ICE sales. That applies across most manufacturers. Most of them face the same choices.
That some, such as BMW have manged to achieve higher, isnt an example of adapt or die, just managed to snatch a bigger slice of that market in the short term. Good work nonetheless. However, if everybody "adapted" as you put it. the end result across the uk fleet in terms of sales is no different. Ie, overall vehicle sales decline. They have to, there is no other potential remotely feasible outcome. Any other outcome requires a rapid rise in demand.
Which has the perverse outcome of reducing the number of older vehicles, the more polluting ones, being scrapped.
The manufactuers, have limited ability to create demand. I accept they have some influence, but certainly not a lot.
1. Manufacturers are forced to work out how to make profit selling electric cars (price, supply chain, desirability) rather than just copping out and selling ICE because it’s easy
2. They already had to do the above by 2035 but this just avoids a cliff edge.
3. For air quality reasons I’m all for getting older diesels off the roads but if the objective is reducing CO2 (which it is) replacing an older petrol with a new one does f all because the efficiency of combustion engines has long since entered the realm of diminishing returns.
And the outcome, if no one takes some sort of decisive action, is an ageing vehicle fleet as a result of diminishing new car sales.
A brand new ICE is manifestly better than a 15 year old obe, especially if you factor diesel. As good as an EV, no, not by any means, but its step fowards. We look, on the face of it, to be backing into a corner that says, improvement can only come if its perfection (EV). But if you cant sell enough you achieve little.
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