New Kitcar Design Sketches and Concepts
Discussion
I was recently prompted to search the internet for a car I remember seeing in an old copy of 'World Cars' (an expensive and glossy directory of all the world's production cars and prototypes that used to be published annually), back in the 1970's.
Turns out it was cleverer than I realised at the time....
The designer seems to be a bit of an unsung genius and went on to develop some very clever ideas in the world of motorcycling and BMX biking.
I'm thinking that with a little work on the ergonomics (...I think you gain access by lifting the windscreen and clambering in through the front - surely a hatch in the top would work better?) and visibility (a front 'glasshouse' instead of the rectangular windows in the sides), it would make a very simple to construct, yet fun and technically interesting lightweight home-built or kit form 'buggy' project.
Would anybody else be tempted?
Turns out it was cleverer than I realised at the time....
- Composite monocoque
- 4 wheel drive
- 4 wheel steering
- BEC
- foot-controlled hydraulic steering
- single, inboard disc brakes
- amphibious
The designer seems to be a bit of an unsung genius and went on to develop some very clever ideas in the world of motorcycling and BMX biking.
I'm thinking that with a little work on the ergonomics (...I think you gain access by lifting the windscreen and clambering in through the front - surely a hatch in the top would work better?) and visibility (a front 'glasshouse' instead of the rectangular windows in the sides), it would make a very simple to construct, yet fun and technically interesting lightweight home-built or kit form 'buggy' project.
Would anybody else be tempted?
The concept reminds me of the DP1:
four wheel drive
bike power
chain drive to front and rear diffs (not a belt as above)
same axles, hubs and suspension all round (double wishbone and push rods)
inboard disc brakes
The DP1 is a very impressive one-man project, worth a look to see what one person can do.
Perhaps a go anywhere version of the DP1 concept is where this idea is headed? A beach buggy for the 21st century?
four wheel drive
bike power
chain drive to front and rear diffs (not a belt as above)
same axles, hubs and suspension all round (double wishbone and push rods)
inboard disc brakes
The DP1 is a very impressive one-man project, worth a look to see what one person can do.
Perhaps a go anywhere version of the DP1 concept is where this idea is headed? A beach buggy for the 21st century?
, I would love to see something similar in the UK...
cymtriks said:
The DP1 is a very impressive one-man project, worth a look to see what one person can do.
Perhaps a go anywhere version of the DP1 concept is where this idea is headed? A beach buggy for the 21st century?
The DP1 is certainly impressive, but it's also very complex (hence expensive to replicate), in comparison to the 'box'.Perhaps a go anywhere version of the DP1 concept is where this idea is headed? A beach buggy for the 21st century?
And it doesn't float.
Complex?
Same hub, wishbones and axles all round
Chain drive
Bike engine
Back bone chassis that could be made out of sheet steel or as part of a floor molding
The concept is actually very simple could form the basis of an updated "Box"
The complex bits (push rod suspension and carbon body) could be changed.
I still see a modern beach buggy!
Same hub, wishbones and axles all round
Chain drive
Bike engine
Back bone chassis that could be made out of sheet steel or as part of a floor molding
The concept is actually very simple could form the basis of an updated "Box"
The complex bits (push rod suspension and carbon body) could be changed.
I still see a modern beach buggy!
cymtriks said:
Complex?
Yes, I think so, in comparison - the DP1 has a very complex spaceframe chassis, complex bodywork, lots of bespoke CNC machined components, etc.The fact that the basic kit for the 'production' DP4 comes in at the equivalent of £18,500 should tell you something...
The 'Box' could be very simply and cheaply built as a Locost-style plans-built project, if you wanted to. Have you seen how simple the moulds are - and it uses only one (outer) mould; the inner skin is simply laid-up onto the core material (end grain balsa in the case of the original, though perhaps rigid foam would be a more modern and cheaper alternative) once this has been placed in the outer moulding.
Sam_68 said:
The designer seems to be a bit of an unsung genius and went on to develop some very clever ideas in the world of motorcycling and BMX biking.
I'm thinking that with a little work on the ergonomics (...I think you gain access by lifting the windscreen and clambering in through the front - surely a hatch in the top would work better?) and visibility (a front 'glasshouse' instead of the rectangular windows in the sides), it would make a very simple to construct, yet fun and technically interesting lightweight home-built or kit form 'buggy' project.
Would anybody else be tempted?
I'm thinking that with a little work on the ergonomics (...I think you gain access by lifting the windscreen and clambering in through the front - surely a hatch in the top would work better?) and visibility (a front 'glasshouse' instead of the rectangular windows in the sides), it would make a very simple to construct, yet fun and technically interesting lightweight home-built or kit form 'buggy' project.
Would anybody else be tempted?
YES! YES!! YES!!!
I have seen this in a book Microcars Mania by Chris Rees. Liked it then. The book names the designers as Dan Hanebrink and Matt Van Leeunen.The cars names a little different being "Monocoque Box". It states it had 4 wheeled drive and steering. It also say these were offered for sale, so not a one off. The first car had a 500cc Kawasaki later ones used a VW Beetle and Honda Accord. That's three of them. This was made from a compact balsa wood/glassfibre sandwich, have a look at how some carbon fibre recumbent bike are built today at home.
It is my understanding that using the windscreen as a door would not be road legal in the UK today. Still you were planing to use a roof hatch anyway. The engine noise could be a problem, as its inside the cabin with the driver. Looking at this see it only has one seat, will you fit two? I doubt you will use four wheeled steering, maybe four wheeled drive, but without these it would still be fun!.
I wish you luck and keep posting.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Sunday 4th March 12:05
KDIcarmad said:
I wish you luck and keep posting.
I ought to make it clear that I was only touting it as an idea for this thread - I've no current intention to actually build one (though if there was enough interest, I guess I could look at producing some CAD drawings - it's simple enough, after all?).If I was to do it, then yes, i think I'd ditch the 4-wheel steering, but try to keep the 4-wheel drive (might be necessary, to back-up the amphibious capability) and the hydraulic steering (for weirdness/novelty value, and to avoid obstructing access with a steering wheel).
It would need some sort of bulkhead between engine and driver, I agree, but that's easy enough to deal with.
And I was kind of toying with the idea of a hybrid IC/electric, so that you could have a nice, quiet, simple water-jet or propellor drive for aquatic use, rather than having the wheels thrashing round (an electric trolling motor costs about £200 new, and could be easily adapted).
KDIcarmad said:
See above posting. Would this make a good kit car? It is very different to any current kits.
Personal I think this would not fit within today kit car scene. Yes retro design are common, normal hinting back to a sportscar of 50's or 60's. This is a totally new design only use a hint of the M1 Escort looks.
It is probably better if a company with links to Ford build this.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Sunday 19th February 14:32
This was actually on the cards and the website seems to be still active, but only a few cars were ever made. i think they appeared for 1 or 2 years at major shows but then all went quiet.
I did see one of these on the road and it was VERY distinctive and looked good. was in BRG in my home town, was very surprised to see it.
http://www.connaughtmotorco.com/
slomax said:
KDIcarmad said:
See above posting. Would this make a good kit car? It is very different to any current kits.
Personal I think this would not fit within today kit car scene. Yes retro design are common, normal hinting back to a sportscar of 50's or 60's. This is a totally new design only use a hint of the M1 Escort looks.
It is probably better if a company with links to Ford build this.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Sunday 19th February 14:32
This was actually on the cards and the website seems to be still active, but only a few cars were ever made. i think they appeared for 1 or 2 years at major shows but then all went quiet.
I did see one of these on the road and it was VERY distinctive and looked good. was in BRG in my home town, was very surprised to see it.
http://www.connaughtmotorco.com/
Nikolai said:
It would definitely suit hybrid power, can you can buy decent motors and batteries off the shelf?
Yes, is the short answer, but they're not particularly cheap, so unless you offered hybrid and non-hybrid (petrol) options, it would probably take it out of the 'Locost'-type plans-built market.I'm not advocating plagiarism, but if you're going to take 'inspiration' from a specific surely it's better to avoid something currently or recently in production, for lots of reasons. And it's not as if you have to look far: some concept cars are created solely to impress the great unwashed without any intention of production feasibility or brand relevance. I'm going to focus specifically on a basic, full body roadster would be my choice, engine front or rear, with a simplified door arrangement or none at all as they seem to be most relevant / feasible. Such as the Suzuki GSX-R4, Nissan Urge & Seat Tango (funnily enough, thinking about this stuff has made me realise that this kind of concept is a little out of fashion of late)
Obviously as concepts they might include features that aren't feasible to reproduce, but they also might contain features that are possible under IVA, but not full type approval. In the case of the GSX-R4 it was also a hotwheels model and features in Gran Turismo, so there's a fair bit of reference data out there. In general, although it's pretty brutal it works thanks to some subtle touches, in the real world might be safer to make it more overtly prettier otherwise it might just look lumpen. So I did a (really) quick sketch and... oh dear
Is it me or is there a whiff of gormless Hippo? Anyway... small (Ø50mm) projector units; exposed shocks possible but probably tricky / costly so replaced with bonnet vents, aero screens now part of bodywork. Reckon it'd have similar lift issues to original TT so spoiler is functional as well as adding interest, & propose K12 Micra rear lights (which I can't believe no-ones used elsewhere).
The Nissan is frankly uglier than I recall, but thought it contained some potentially useful features: if we're concerned that straying too far from the LSIS template might freak out potential purchasers this might be a smaller step. Though in fact a fully enclosed targa body type, it mimics an open wheeler by bracketing the main body with contrasting full length bodysides with wheelarches as deliberately distinct elements. With a little bit of cunning the wheelarches could be fixed in relation to the wheel (as opposed to the body) thereby facilitating dramatically tight clearances.
The Tango is the most conventional but I mention because IIRC it was a runner and FWD to boot (if you prefer mid-rear, see Seat Formula
), and therefore shows what can be done with modern FWD proportions (though it may not have been strut suspension). Easy now, I'm not suggesting a FWD car - all I'll say is that forward of the front axle line, Subarus have very similar proportions....
Obviously as concepts they might include features that aren't feasible to reproduce, but they also might contain features that are possible under IVA, but not full type approval. In the case of the GSX-R4 it was also a hotwheels model and features in Gran Turismo, so there's a fair bit of reference data out there. In general, although it's pretty brutal it works thanks to some subtle touches, in the real world might be safer to make it more overtly prettier otherwise it might just look lumpen. So I did a (really) quick sketch and... oh dear
Is it me or is there a whiff of gormless Hippo? Anyway... small (Ø50mm) projector units; exposed shocks possible but probably tricky / costly so replaced with bonnet vents, aero screens now part of bodywork. Reckon it'd have similar lift issues to original TT so spoiler is functional as well as adding interest, & propose K12 Micra rear lights (which I can't believe no-ones used elsewhere).
The Nissan is frankly uglier than I recall, but thought it contained some potentially useful features: if we're concerned that straying too far from the LSIS template might freak out potential purchasers this might be a smaller step. Though in fact a fully enclosed targa body type, it mimics an open wheeler by bracketing the main body with contrasting full length bodysides with wheelarches as deliberately distinct elements. With a little bit of cunning the wheelarches could be fixed in relation to the wheel (as opposed to the body) thereby facilitating dramatically tight clearances.
The Tango is the most conventional but I mention because IIRC it was a runner and FWD to boot (if you prefer mid-rear, see Seat Formula
), and therefore shows what can be done with modern FWD proportions (though it may not have been strut suspension). Easy now, I'm not suggesting a FWD car - all I'll say is that forward of the front axle line, Subarus have very similar proportions....With the brief of: track day/ weekend car, relatively easy to manufacture the bodywork, use FWD configuration mid-mounted i.e. Zetec/Duratec, this is what I'd like to make. I know its only a rear 3/4 view but comments welcome. Oh and I'm an engineer not a graphic artist so apologies for the poor marker skills!
Edited by Nikolai on Monday 5th March 08:51
Nikolai said:
With the brief of: track day/ weekend car, relatively easy to manufacture the bodywork, use FWD configuration mid-mounted i.e. Zetec/Duratec, this is what I'd like to make. I know its only a rear 3/4 view but comments welcome. Oh and I'm an engineer not a graphic artist so apologies for the poor marker skills!
I think that looks fine/nice, hopefully others will offer a more in-depth analysis! Apart from the engine, what other donor parts are you thinking about using?It did instantly remind me of another design but cannot quite put my finger on it, at the moment I am thinking Porsche 914 or Renault Spider??
The problem I see is the very high prices of such kits.
My hope is that a new different, unusual, original, striking kit design will be produced that could see competed Kits at around the £10,000 mark including all the bits. On the Road including IVA.
Stuart Mills of MEV fame, has demonstrated very effectively what can be done with the MX5 underpinnings and produced several excellent, Kit cars that could and are being built for road use at figures significantly below that value.
Once we move into the many tens of thousands of pounds I think we are far outside the costs that an ordinary enthusiasts can afford.
Magnificent cars maybe, but never going to be built by the ordinary Kit Car buff. I think these are much more Dream Cars and Concept Cars than run of the mill drivable, buildable, affordable Kit Cars.
Its the ordinary Kit Car fan that I hope the Kit Car manufacturers can serve.
My hope is that a new different, unusual, original, striking kit design will be produced that could see competed Kits at around the £10,000 mark including all the bits. On the Road including IVA.
Stuart Mills of MEV fame, has demonstrated very effectively what can be done with the MX5 underpinnings and produced several excellent, Kit cars that could and are being built for road use at figures significantly below that value.
Once we move into the many tens of thousands of pounds I think we are far outside the costs that an ordinary enthusiasts can afford.
Magnificent cars maybe, but never going to be built by the ordinary Kit Car buff. I think these are much more Dream Cars and Concept Cars than run of the mill drivable, buildable, affordable Kit Cars.
Its the ordinary Kit Car fan that I hope the Kit Car manufacturers can serve.
There was a posting about the car below on the topic "Complete kit car are going to design and build a Kit Car!"
It is the Rinspeed Exasis. (Look this up on the Internet). Please note the cleave use of clear mudguards and the seats. Fitted with motorbike wheels in place of these one off wheels and I can see it selling as a Kit. As to the engine, a small car unit would make a more usable car than a "super bike" engine. Personal I would want weather protection added. A friend put forward the ideas of using a quod bike as a donor. I can see that working.
A clear (see through colour) body shell like this could fitted to any current ex-chassis car. I would make them most usable.
It is the Rinspeed Exasis. (Look this up on the Internet). Please note the cleave use of clear mudguards and the seats. Fitted with motorbike wheels in place of these one off wheels and I can see it selling as a Kit. As to the engine, a small car unit would make a more usable car than a "super bike" engine. Personal I would want weather protection added. A friend put forward the ideas of using a quod bike as a donor. I can see that working.
A clear (see through colour) body shell like this could fitted to any current ex-chassis car. I would make them most usable.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Wednesday 7th March 12:01
KDIcarmad said:
There was a posting about the car below on the topic "Complete kit car are going to design and build a Kit Car!"
It is the Rinspeed Exasis. (Look this up on the Internet). Please note the cleave use of clear mudguards and the seats. Fitted with motorbike wheels in place of these one off wheels and I can see it selling as a Kit. As to the engine, a small car unit would make a more usable car than a "super bike" engine. Personal I would want weather protection added. A friend put forward the ideas of using a quod bike as a donor. I can see that working.
A clear (see through colour) body shell like this could fitted to any current ex-chassis car. I would make them most usable.
Packaging a car engine and gearbox into that width would be a challenge, hence the use of a bike in the Rinspeed Exasis, however thinking about it, the trusty old A series is quite narrow It is the Rinspeed Exasis. (Look this up on the Internet). Please note the cleave use of clear mudguards and the seats. Fitted with motorbike wheels in place of these one off wheels and I can see it selling as a Kit. As to the engine, a small car unit would make a more usable car than a "super bike" engine. Personal I would want weather protection added. A friend put forward the ideas of using a quod bike as a donor. I can see that working.
A clear (see through colour) body shell like this could fitted to any current ex-chassis car. I would make them most usable.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Wednesday 7th March 12:01
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