Knackered old Porsche with loads of natural light - Boxster!

Knackered old Porsche with loads of natural light - Boxster!

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Discussion

braddo

10,505 posts

189 months

Thursday 11th April
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JWH said:
HI PPBB - as (mostly) a lurker on PH I wanted to post to say that I admire your work and thoroughly enjoy the way you write about it - the post above is a perfect example of the little snippets of tech info you add that I find fascinating. Keep up the good work!
I echo this thumbup

poppopbangbang

Original Poster:

1,848 posts

142 months

Thursday 11th April
quotequote all
braddo said:
JWH said:
HI PPBB - as (mostly) a lurker on PH I wanted to post to say that I admire your work and thoroughly enjoy the way you write about it - the post above is a perfect example of the little snippets of tech info you add that I find fascinating. Keep up the good work!
I echo this thumbup
Thank you both, I really am over the moon my automotive engineering schenanigans are enjoyable reading biggrin

Church of Noise

1,458 posts

238 months

Friday 12th April
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Honestly, your threads, those of sottos and mwstewart are my favourite reads on ph by a country mile!
(with honorable mentions for escy, waitey, 2manycarz, flemke's F1 thread and a couple of others who's name I forget - need more coffee)

loudlashadjuster

5,130 posts

185 months

Friday 12th April
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poppopbangbang said:
Very pleased with that as it emits just as well as the M96 did and remains completely road legal (like actual road legal, not just MOT test legal). I'm still going to see if with a bit of effort we can't get it to Euro 4 levels, at least at an MOT emissions test level - it's already there on hydrocarbons.
Great result. That HC reading must give you a lot of confidence everything is running and bedded-in well.

RM

593 posts

98 months

Friday 12th April
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Church of Noise said:
Honestly, your threads, those of sottos and mwstewart are my favourite reads on ph by a country mile!
(with honorable mentions for escy, waitey, 2manycarz, flemke's F1 thread and a couple of others who's name I forget - need more coffee)
A couple I don't recognise there - could you link to a thread by sottos and waitey?

poppopbangbang

Original Poster:

1,848 posts

142 months

Friday 12th April
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loudlashadjuster said:
Great result. That HC reading must give you a lot of confidence everything is running and bedded-in well.
Yes exactly, the rest is just cat temp - it's a long way from the engine with a lot of volume between it and the exhaust ports but with some calibration changes and maybe some more thermal lagging to avoid the heat rejection from the pipe length it should get a lot better, well as much better as you can get when it already emits laugh

I can't do a lot about the Lambda being close to the limits as there just isn't enough resolution available with 1000CC per pot injectors to get closer than that, especially at quite a high base fuel pressure so we'll just have to accept within limits is good enough on that one. If I wanted to improve that I'd have to go to multiple injectors per pot with some circa 300CC primaries to do the off boost/low speed/emissions running and some 700CC's or similar further up the intake runner for high RPM and on boost running.




wc98

10,416 posts

141 months

Friday 12th April
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I don't post much in here, but do read a lot as it's my favourite section of the entire forum. Your high mileage 4s is probably my favourite car of the entire forum (would be a close run thing between that and a Giulia Quad if i had the choice to be fair) and your threads are some of the most interesting and enjoyable to read.

What you have done here is incredible and a great project especially given the potential for reuse of engines that might end up scrapped and the rejuvenation of rolling chassis that might end up the same way. As green a project as it gets for me smile (maybe apply for some of that eco funding to get the kit start up going wink)

There are people out there seriously monetising far lesser projects on blogs/vlogs etc so getting to see it all unfold on here for free is a bonus. Keep up the good work and i will go back to being quiet and reading only in here.

Church of Noise

1,458 posts

238 months

Friday 12th April
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RM said:
A couple I don't recognise there - could you link to a thread by sottos and waitey?
LMGTFY smile

sottos:
BMW 2002: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Porsche 996: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

waitey: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...


poppopbangbang

Original Poster:

1,848 posts

142 months

Saturday 13th April
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wc98 said:
I don't post much in here, but do read a lot as it's my favourite section of the entire forum. Your high mileage 4s is probably my favourite car of the entire forum (would be a close run thing between that and a Giulia Quad if i had the choice to be fair) and your threads are some of the most interesting and enjoyable to read.

What you have done here is incredible and a great project especially given the potential for reuse of engines that might end up scrapped and the rejuvenation of rolling chassis that might end up the same way. As green a project as it gets for me smile (maybe apply for some of that eco funding to get the kit start up going wink)

There are people out there seriously monetising far lesser projects on blogs/vlogs etc so getting to see it all unfold on here for free is a bonus. Keep up the good work and i will go back to being quiet and reading only in here.
Thank you for the very kind words! They are really appreciated and I know I've said it several times now but I really am over the moon that my automotive messing is enjoyable to read, it means so much to share a project and have it so well recieved.

poppopbangbang

Original Poster:

1,848 posts

142 months

Saturday 13th April
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Church of Noise said:
First time I've seen Waiteys Cobra! What a bit of kit! That's my post dinner reading sorted! biggrin

poppopbangbang

Original Poster:

1,848 posts

142 months

Saturday 13th April
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Bit of an update on progress. We're 250 miles in now and all going mostly to plan biggrin

First oil change done and no dramas with what came out, I had a slight coolant dribble but nipping all the hose clips up has solved it (which isn't unusual on the first few heat cycles with silicone hoses) so the motor seems (touch wood!) pretty happy. Another 150 miles or so to go and it can go onto the proper oil.

With a few miles done I've been building up the load/boost and am now on a 5500RPM rev limit along with generally testing if all the related systems work as they should. Wastegate is wastegating and on a 0.9bar spring it's making 917mbar of manifold pressure so that's impressively good. What isn't working out quite as well is the air-con rad as a charge cooler rad idea.

The pressure drop across it is just a little too much, I've swapped the Bosch pump out for a Pierburg CWA100 which are about as monty as you'd ever need and whilst this is doing the do I'm about 10 degrees off my target intake temp at the boost it's currently running, which is all down to the flow rate of the system being about 50% of what would be absolutely ideal. I'll solve this by calling PWR on Monday, sending them some CAD and getting a rad made to the same dimensions (bar thickness) as the standard aircon rad so it still hides in the rad duct nicely. I'll see if they can't rustle me up a nice plenum/tank at the same time.

Driveability is very good, the boost arrives as early as I'd hoped so whilst it's very obviously a small engine at 1800RPM it feels much more muscular by 2800RPM and the boosty noises are sublime! biggrin Considering it's on a calibration which is basically created by a wizard it's amazing just how good it is off the bat, there's a fair few bits that need tinkering with for driveability but the mathmatical elements of fueling etc. are fairly spot on.

Very much looking forward to getting it on the dyno now!

Oh and it's done some wet running so it all looks a lot less new and shiny under there now and it's just done a Tesco run, it's basically a daily laugh



poppopbangbang

Original Poster:

1,848 posts

142 months

Sunday 14th April
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Bit of electronics work today between lawn cutting and Sunday lunch laugh , now it's all mostly working I've turned my attention to sorting out a few more of the integrations required.

Firstly was getting the ECU aware of the vehicle speed, this was quite simple as there is a rear axle speed signal generated by the ABS which exists at the original ECU (for idle up in coast etc.), I'd already wired this so it was just a matter of confirming that it did indeed do the do I thought it did. I remain seriously impressed with the Ignitron ECU as despite the fact it exists to be in a Golf it provides all the required functionality to rescale things like this, even when the frequencies involved are a magnitude greater. The Bosch ABS in the 986 outputs a frequency signal at 1hz per tenth of a mile per hour, why it needs to be quite this accurate I am not sure as the VAG implementation was 1hz per KPH, never the less I was able to rescale this and scale it to support 322kph at the ECU.... which should be enough wink

With that done I could then setup VSS dependant throttle and boost maps which gives gear dependant boost as well as the ability to run different dbw throttle response curves at different vehicle speeds. This is a very OEM way of doing things as it allows for a soft throttle response at low speeds for shunting around car parks etc. but an aggresive throttle response when the vehicle is at higher speeds. With that all completed I then configured the idle drive and idle up (so the engine revs will stay a few hundred RPM higher if you declutch in gear) and a couple of other related things.

The next job is to fit a clutch pedal sensor and terminate this and the brake pedal sensor into the dash display, this will run some stuff internally to turn the voltage into a 1 or a 0 and then stick it down the CANBus to the ECU. I can then configure launch, idle drive more completely and a few other bits.

As always with these projects it's a case of how far do you want to go but getting the control aspects to a reasonably OEM level was always important to me. I want a good cold start, reliable cat light off, nice idle drive and similar and doing this with aftermarket ECU's is usually quite a challenge. This one's been pretty easy biggrin

TV8

3,122 posts

176 months

Sunday 14th April
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Fantastic thread and such attention to detail. Are the insurance company fine with all these sorts of mods?

poppopbangbang

Original Poster:

1,848 posts

142 months

Sunday 14th April
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TV8 said:
Fantastic thread and such attention to detail. Are the insurance company fine with all these sorts of mods?
Absolutely, they wouldn't have my business if they weren't willing to agree both the value I want it covering for and the specification of it. They insure a lot of things for me (including the 996) and I've been very pleased with them over the years, generally the process starts with me sending them a detailed spec of the car along with what I want it covering for (both value, use case etc.), we'll then have a bit of a chat and look over some of the related invoices etc. as proof of value and I'll take some detailed photos of "the asset" as proof of condition at the point it goes on cover. With the Booster I gave them a spec at the start of the project and we'd agreed what the cover looked like whilst the car still had the original engine in it.

Both the 996 and the 986 are insured for business use, have European cover and whilst on mileage based policies the mileage isn't exactly restrictive, just as important to me they're insured for what I feel they are worth should the worst happen. It's also extremely useful having an e-mail address and a phone number that goes to a person as if I decide to do something weird and wonderful.... or just some filming, it's easy to get them on cover for that sort of activity.

In my experience it's possible to insure absolutely anything, but when the vast majority of insurers deal with a fixed spec product (i.e. a standard car) it's not surprising that the struggle or don't want to cover something very none standard that has a higher value than an equivalent age standard car. There are numerous brokers and speciality insurers that cater for this sort of thing (along with boats, air craft and a range of other crazy stuff) so if you want to do a crazy project don't let the thoughts on insurance stop you, just don't go looking for it on Confused or similar biggrin

JJJ.

1,271 posts

16 months

Monday 15th April
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Great to hear you're on the home straight and only some niggles to sort.
Looking forward to updates and the dyno runs.

poppopbangbang

Original Poster:

1,848 posts

142 months

Monday 15th April
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I've given Badgers a shout this morning to sort out getting it on their dyno in the near future so you won't have too long to wait biggrin

I'm very keen to see what it makes on this exhaust manifold and how the charge cooling holds up, I feel that's the biggest limiting factor but I want a baseline of what the performance of the system is before deploying the water injection bandaid with some amount of prejudice laugh

Escy

3,940 posts

150 months

Monday 15th April
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I'm interested to see how you get on with the charge cooler system. What's your strategy for running the pump? Flat out the whole time? What sort of IAT's would you be happy with?

I run water and methanol 50/50 mix and it's a game changer. More boost, more timing and lower temperatures. Just looking at a log from the other evening. The charge cooler coolant was the same temperature at the start of both pulls (24c).

With WMI - 3000mbar, IAT 26c, EGT 860c.

Without, 2800mbar, IAT 47c, EGT 900c.

.

poppopbangbang

Original Poster:

1,848 posts

142 months

Tuesday 16th April
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Yep, WI is essentially a cheat code isn't it laugh - it was never something we could really use in OEM land though and it's banned in most motorsport series/championships that I was ever involved in so I feel a bit bad about just going straight in with it and not seeing what can be achieved on heat exchangers only first.

Given it runs a lot of boost and is sat in the middle of something in a 20 degree ambient I'd be happy with anything under 50 degrees C sustained, getting nearer to 40 degrees C I'd consider a total win. The air filter is also completely unshielded at the moment so unless the cars at speed that's going to be hindering things by chucking air that's already 10 degrees over ambient down the turbo which only makes it work harder in turn.

I'd be more than happy with your none WI temps, I'm quite happy to sacrifice 20bhp or so for simplicity, reliability I'm happy enough to lean on the knock control as required but even at 50 degrees inlet temp it shouldn't need to do that as the compensation tables are pretty good.

Of course if it ends up woefully over what's acceptable it'll be getting all the water/meth down it, if only to see how much power it makes, I built the engine with a WI bung ready to go just after the throttle body should it ever be needed wink

With regards pump control it'll be WO from the get go, there is almost no reason to do anything else (unless you're concerned about every amp in the electrical system). I want to achieve the maximum delta possible so keeping the charge cooler coolant at the lowest temperature possible is a priority and whilst flow rate vs temperature is a diminishing return (essentially past a point you aren't really moving any significant additional amount of thermal) it's very difficult to end up in a situation where you have too much flow rate. Engines are a bit different as you have a permanent flow restriction at the thermostat and every increase in flow rate is a decrease in crank power as you're robbing it to drive the pump but on open systems like a charge cooler I'm yet to find a real world issue with all the flow rate all of the time.

What sort of pump are you using for your setup as I think you've got a pair of coolers so probably quite a complex loop?

Escy

3,940 posts

150 months

Tuesday 16th April
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I'm running a Pierburg CWA-150. I don't run it at constantly. At idle and under 20mph it's switched off. My reasoning for this is I don't have a fan on the radiator at front. I figured if I'm sat at traffic lights and I was circulating the coolant at full pelt I'd just heat up the coolant.

poppopbangbang

Original Poster:

1,848 posts

142 months

Tuesday 16th April
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Escy said:
I'm running a Pierburg CWA-150. I don't run it at constantly. At idle and under 20mph it's switched off. My reasoning for this is I don't have a fan on the radiator at front. I figured if I'm sat at traffic lights and I was circulating the coolant at full pelt I'd just heat up the coolant.
Do you know what the head pressure of the system is? If it's quite free flowing you may find a CWA-100 gives more flow, the 150 is designed for high head pressure applications but at lower head pressure the 100 flows quite a bit more than the 150.



I think you are running an original Porsche centre rad as the charge cooler rad? Even at zero vehicle speed you're likely radiating more than it's absorbing as it's not sandwiched with other exchangers, plus there's the engine bay heat soak into the charge coolers at zero vehicle speed - very often it's worth running the pump to avoid this.

Of course none of this stops it working absolutely fine, I'll be chuffed if my setup performs like yours!