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mrmr96
11,937 posts
73 months
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youngsyr said: I completely agree. I'm assuming that Thatcham Cat I alarms should be set off by a breaking window.
I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption. Well if it's possible to do that to a BMW, then how did it pass Thatchams test?
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mrmr96
11,937 posts
73 months
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youngsyr said: I completely agree. I'm assuming that Thatcham Cat I alarms should be set off by a breaking window.
I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption. Well if that assumption is true, AND it's possible to do that to a BMW, THEN how did it pass Thatchams test?
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jeremyc
9,666 posts
153 months
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mrmr96 said: youngsyr said: I completely agree. I'm assuming that Thatcham Cat I alarms should be set off by a breaking window.
I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption. Well if that assumption is true, AND it's possible to do that to a BMW, THEN how did it pass Thatchams test? They only tested breaking the left hand window? And/or BMW supplied a LHD car and they tested the drivers side window?
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youngsyr
6,784 posts
61 months
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mrmr96 said: youngsyr said: I completely agree. I'm assuming that Thatcham Cat I alarms should be set off by a breaking window.
I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption. Well if that assumption is true, AND it's possible to do that to a BMW, THEN how did it pass Thatchams test? Who knows, Thatcham states that Category I involves testing the following: Thatcham Website said: The Thatcham Vehicle Security Categories
Category 1
Passenger Cars, LCV, HGV, Plant, Motorcycles
ELECTRONIC ALARM AND IMMOBILISER
Alarm
Perimeter detection
Ignition detection
Passenger compartment movement detection
Inclination detection (Motorcycle only)
Audible warning with battery back-up power supply
Immobiliser
Passively set
Isolates a minimum of two operating circuits or systems, or a minimum of one operationally relevant vehicle control unit with coded intervention Source: http://www.thatcham.org/security/index.jsp?page=75..."Perimeter detection" is a bit vague, but Passenger compartment movement detection isn't. If someone is cloning keys via the OBD II port, clearly there must be movement within the passenger compartment. Seems pretty straight forward to me - the BMW alarms we're talking about do not meet Thatcham I. This should be no surprise to anyone given the ease with which they're being stolen.
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Digger
5,691 posts
60 months
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Well i have been perusing this list and there is no mention of any bmw-specific alarms falling under Thatcham's certification! http://www.thatcham.org/standards/index.jsp?page=9...Edit - yep linked to youngsyr's post above. Would be interesting to get an insurance quote with a Cobra alarm 'installed' to see if a Thatcham Cat 1 device carries any weight with Insurance companies.
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youngsyr
6,784 posts
61 months
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bodhi
2,294 posts
98 months
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youngsyr said: Source: http://www.thatcham.org/security/index.jsp?page=75..."Perimeter detection" is a bit vague, but Passenger compartment movement detection isn't. If someone is cloning keys via the OBD II port, clearly there must be movement within the passenger compartment. Seems pretty straight forward to me - the BMW alarms we're talking about do not meet Thatcham I. This should be no surprise to anyone given the ease with which they're being stolen. Yet Thatcham saw fit to give the entire 3-Series range from 2005 - 2009 5 out of 5 for theft protection, so clearly they must. If these standards aren't up to scratch I'd say there was a few more people than just BMW with egg on their faces, and it does indeed begin to point to an industry wide problem.
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youngsyr
6,784 posts
61 months
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bodhi said: Yet Thatcham saw fit to give the entire 3-Series range from 2005 - 2009 5 out of 5 for theft protection, so clearly they must. If these standards aren't up to scratch I'd say there was a few more people than just BMW with egg on their faces, and it does indeed begin to point to an industry wide problem. Perhaps, but we need to focus on the issue at hand - BMW have claimed that their alarms meet Thatcham I in their brochures. If the alarms do not meet this standard, then I would suspect that BMW could be held liable for any damages/rectification costs that their customers incur as a result.
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bodhi
2,294 posts
98 months
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youngsyr said: Perhaps, but we need to focus on the issue at hand - BMW have claimed that their alarms meet Thatcham I in their brochures. If the alarms do not meet this standard, then I would suspect that BMW could be held liable for any damages/rectification costs that their customers incur as a result. But they do meet this standard, which is why Thatcham have them listed on their website as meeting their approval? If, for instance, an alarm meets the required standard to be Thatcham approved, and then it turns out later that there was a glaring hole in Thatcham's testing, I don't see how BMW could be responsible for that, from a litigation point of view at least. BMW claimed it met Thatcham Category I, and all the literature on the Thatcham website says that they do. I have recently been getting insurance quotes for my current 3-Series, and I know it's an E46, however when I fill the forms in on the internet, it autocompletes the security part of the questionnaire for me. And what does it autocomplete? Yep, Thatcham Approved Factory Fitted Alarm/Immobiliser. I really would struggle to believe BMW made the retrograde step of not fitting Thatcham Approved kit for the E9x series. (The quotes are all down on last year by the way).
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ncbbmw
95 posts
53 months
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Regarding Thatcham approval I think peeps have a higher expectation of the standard required to achieve the 'Pass' than it likely is.
When the Class 1 and Class 2 ratings were introduced in the mid 1990's in simple terms for the vehicle or retrofit system to qualify it was.
Class 2. Electronic Imobiliser built into or retro fitted to vehicle.
Class 1. As Class 2 plus an audible warning in the event of intrustion without the use of the keys. Eg: Breaking a window (or opening the door and not activating the Ign. Key within a certain time).
Yes the systems had to meet a certain spec, a major one being interior protection but other than that it was more related to the siren, battery back-up, the install process and how the system remotes worked. With both Class 1 and Class 2 the imobiliser was the main measurement as this prevented the vehicle being stolen, at the time theft from vehicles was less of an issue than theft of a vehicle.
Golf Gti's and Escort Cossie's spring to mind, Park it and wave bye'bye, if it was still there when you came back it was a good day.
Whilst I'd expect the performance standard to have changed over the last 17 years I very much doubt the 'alarm going off in the event of a window being smashed' is measured to the last mm. Likewise when the car is stolen using a clonned key the Alarm hasn't failed.
AFAIK most current BMW models use a electronic sphere from the centre of the headlining (the little box) to create a protection field against intrustion which is why the technique the scumbags appear to use works. I'm not sure if the 'sphere' can be adjusted but its certainly worth testing it yourself to ensure its active as it can easily be turned off by accident using the key. To test it, leave the window open, set the alarm, wait about a minute then stick your arm in.
BTW older BM's used to have a heavy lump of metal on the bottom of the window runner, when the window was smashed the weight made the runner drop to the bottom of the door which I believe activated the alarm circuit, this didn't meet Thatcham Class 1 which is why the factory system back in the 1990's didn't pass.
Sh*t that it is I doubt BMW will be confessing anytime soon, their Legal Advisors
will have told them to steer well clear of doing that and TBH I doubt any other Car Maker would either. I would however expect behind the mask that they are taking the issue very seriously and working hard to create a permanant fix. BMW value their brand very highly and won't be enjoying the unwanted attention.
Likewise it won't only be private vehicles that have / are being stolen, Dealers run huge fleets of loan cars and demo's not to mention hire companies and the Plod. I bet a few of those have gone missing by now. Rest assured the Dealers will be making their voices heard, Dealer Groups such as Sytner won't just sit back and watch New Car Sales decline without getting answers.
My name isn't Noel (Just share the initals)
I don't and never have worked for BMW
I have previously worked in a BMW Dealership.
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BlueBaconBoy
1 posts
9 months
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Big disgrace. Why dont affected drivers drive to BMW HQ and do a blockade?
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German
147 posts
16 months
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BlueBaconBoy said: Big disgrace. Why dont affected drivers drive to BMW HQ and do a blockade? Probably because some theiving b  d has stolen their car? I know what you mean, couldnt resist.....Maybe try to get watchdog or something to video a handing back of keys as well? Take all the keys and give them back to HQ. Bit cheezy but those consumer report shows seem to froth on it.
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youngsyr
6,784 posts
61 months
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BlueBaconBoy said: Big disgrace. Why dont affected drivers drive to BMW HQ and do a blockade? ..because they no longer have access to their (now stolen) cars? 
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clockworks
702 posts
14 months
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I took my 525 into the local dealer yesterday to get the aircon fixed, and I asked the service desk guy about this problem. He genuinely seemed to know nothing about it, but did say that they had had 2 instances where customers had gone up to London, and stuff had been nicked from their locked cars - the cars were still locked when they returned. No sign of forced entry.
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currybum
555 posts
67 months
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The biggest security flaw isn’t that there is a dead spot in the interior alarm; it is the fact that you can code a new key without any form of central authorisation in just a few seconds.
It’s this fact that has caused so many cars to be stolen and the one that BMW has to address.
It means that a potential thief only needs access to your OBD port for 30 seconds for him take your car any time he wants, this could be done in a car park where the locking is jammed, when you are selling the car and they come to take a look and even when the car is being serviced.
Basically any time your car is open and you are not checking the driver’s side for people getting in…Petrol station, car wash..airport parking etc etc…your car could get pinched.
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FunkDokta
111 posts
9 months
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I do fancy the new 3 series in the MSport guise. Not many if those about
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mrmr96
11,937 posts
73 months
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clockworks said: I took my 525 into the local dealer yesterday to get the aircon fixed, and I asked the service desk guy about this problem. He genuinely seemed to know nothing about it, but did say that they had had 2 instances where customers had gone up to London, and stuff had been nicked from their locked cars - the cars were still locked when they returned. No sign of forced entry. That's probably a good scam somewhere like london: Use a jammer to prevent the car remote locking, then help yourself to the stuff. Then program the car to their spare key*, and then lock the car. The owner will never know they walked off leaving the car unlocked. - (since it seems a car can have up to about 10 keys, but a key can be coded to any number of cars, as it's teh car that remebers a list of authorised key serial numbers or similar.)
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aeropilot
7,001 posts
96 months
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currybum said: The biggest security flaw isn’t that there is a dead spot in the interior alarm; it is the fact that you can code a new key without any form of central authorisation in just a few seconds.
It’s this fact that has caused so many cars to be stolen and the one that BMW has to address.
It means that a potential thief only needs access to your OBD port for 30 seconds for him take your car any time he wants, this could be done in a car park where the locking is jammed, when you are selling the car and they come to take a look and even when the car is being serviced.
Basically any time your car is open and you are not checking the driver’s side for people getting in…Petrol station, car wash..airport parking etc etc…your car could get pinched. Agreed.
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ncbbmw
95 posts
53 months
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mrmr96 said: clockworks said: I took my 525 into the local dealer yesterday to get the aircon fixed, and I asked the service desk guy about this problem. He genuinely seemed to know nothing about it, but did say that they had had 2 instances where customers had gone up to London, and stuff had been nicked from their locked cars - the cars were still locked when they returned. No sign of forced entry. That's probably a good scam somewhere like london: Use a jammer to prevent the car remote locking, then help yourself to the stuff. Then program the car to their spare key*, and then lock the car. The owner will never know they walked off leaving the car unlocked. - (since it seems a car can have up to about 10 keys, but a key can be coded to any number of cars, as it's teh car that remebers a list of authorised key serial numbers or similar.)
I very much doubt a thief would bother making a key just to lock it after stealing the contents, they may lock the car using the button on the console and exit via a passenger door but most likely is they would just leave it unlocked. How often when returning to your car do you pay attention and check the car is still locked and make sure the car is actually being unlocked when you blip the remote? I'd suggest not much.
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sinizter
3,346 posts
55 months
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ncbbmw said: How often when returning to your car do you pay attention and check the car is still locked and make sure the car is actually being unlocked when you blip the remote? I'd suggest not much. All the time. I watch the lock thing go in or for the indicator flashes if locking, and the reverse when unlocking. My car's indicators will not flash if they are already locked or unlocked.
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