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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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Edinburger said: WhereamI said: I've spent quite a lot of my life studying economics, whilst you seem to be into windmills and secret discussions with the SG giving you a unique insight into their policies, I'm into economics. I don't have blinkers on, I'm quite happy to debate the merits of different economic policies but I'm not seeing any. It's easy to criticise policy but you need to put up something as an alternative to be credible and I'm not seeing anything. Okay, so this post instantly gains you respect as you're clearly knowledgeable in economics unlike many posters in this thread - and I include myself in that. So put an objective hat on and share with us your thoughts on how credible an independent Scotland could be, from an economic point of view. But if you read the rhetoric in many of his posts, he clearly cannot be objective! He will take a very biased line on data to attempt to back up his argument. To be fair, no-one can ever be fully objective. The human mind makes up a decision well in advance of sufficient data. Almost everyone will then subsequently 'find' data to back up that position. It is the way of things. I'd imagine most of the 'Scotland can't possibly manage on it's own' belief comes from decades, nay centuries, of Scotland being regarded (primarily through ignorance) by our friends south of the border as just a quaint little annexe of England. And, also to be fair, many Scots are brought up almost subconciously being told that England remains the evil oppressor.
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WhereamI
6,093 posts
86 months
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ViperPict said: But if you read the rhetoric in many of his posts, he clearly cannot be objective! He will take a very biased line on data to attempt to back up his argument. To be fair, no-one can ever be fully objective. The human mind makes up a decision well in advance of sufficient data. Almost everyone will then subsequently 'find' data to back up that position. It is the way of things. I'd imagine most of the 'Scotland can't possibly manage on it's own' belief comes from decades, nay centuries, of Scotland being regarded (primarily through ignorance) by our friends south of the border as just a quaint little annexe of England. And, also to be fair, many Scots are brought up almost subconciously being told that England remains the evil oppressor. People from different viewpoints can debate, something that doesn't seem to happen on this thread. A debate means taking one person's points, analysing them and putting forwards an alternative view backed by logical argument. So, for example, there is an argument as to why an independent Scotland will pay more to service it's debt. It's a logical argument that's been put forwards a number of times on this thread, the proper response to that would be to either accept it or to put forwards logical arguments to counter it. Unfortunately we don't get either, just accusations of being biased or links to articles by people who also don't put forwards any logical argument to back their position. I'm neither in favour nor against independence, I really don't care. But I can see a lot of negative economic arguments against independence and I'm not seeing anyone put forwards any logical ones in favour.
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mcdjl
1,605 posts
64 months
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WhereamI said: People from different viewpoints can debate, something that doesn't seem to happen on this thread. A debate means taking one person's points, analysing them and putting forwards an alternative view backed by logical argument.
So, for example, there is an argument as to why an independent Scotland will pay more to service it's debt. It's a logical argument that's been put forwards a number of times on this thread, the proper response to that would be to either accept it or to put forwards logical arguments to counter it. Unfortunately we don't get either, just accusations of being biased or links to articles by people who also don't put forwards any logical argument to back their position.
I'm neither in favour nor against independence, I really don't care. But I can see a lot of negative economic arguments against independence and I'm not seeing anyone put forwards any logical ones in favour. But its not just about the economics, everyones getting too focused on that. Its the other benefits that VP hasn't named yet that are worth it. Oh wait a minute, he has named them: ViperPict said:
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WhereamI
6,093 posts
86 months
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mcdjl said: But its not just about the economics, everyones getting too focused on that. Joking apart it shouldn't just be about economics, there are a lot of other reasons to take into the mix. But the reason it keeps coming back to economics is that it is the biggest area of risk, there is a lot of noise and nonsense around it but fundamentally for a significant proportion of the electorate it will be a major factor - even though they don't understand it.
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thinfourth2
23,546 posts
73 months
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ViperPict said: But if you read the rhetoric in many of his posts, he clearly cannot be objective! He will take a very biased line on data to attempt to back up his argument. To be fair, no-one can ever be fully objective. The human mind makes up a decision well in advance of sufficient data. Almost everyone will then subsequently 'find' data to back up that position. It is the way of things. I'd imagine most of the 'Scotland can't possibly manage on it's own' belief comes from decades, nay centuries, of Scotland being regarded (primarily through ignorance) by our friends south of the border as just a quaint little annexe of England. And, also to be fair, many Scots are brought up almost subconciously being told that England remains the evil oppressor. So what about those of us that live north of the border and have lived their entire life north of the border who don't actually like england You know folk like me Is my opinion coloured by my dislike of my favourite country? Scotland will survive independence but everything points towards a high tax nanny state Unless the right wing who aren't the tories come to power we are looking at labour for a few decades
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: But if you read the rhetoric in many of his posts, he clearly cannot be objective! He will take a very biased line on data to attempt to back up his argument. To be fair, no-one can ever be fully objective. The human mind makes up a decision well in advance of sufficient data. Almost everyone will then subsequently 'find' data to back up that position. It is the way of things. I'd imagine most of the 'Scotland can't possibly manage on it's own' belief comes from decades, nay centuries, of Scotland being regarded (primarily through ignorance) by our friends south of the border as just a quaint little annexe of England. And, also to be fair, many Scots are brought up almost subconciously being told that England remains the evil oppressor. So what about those of us that live north of the border and have lived their entire life north of the border who don't actually like england You know folk like me Is my opinion coloured by my dislike of my favourite country? Scotland will survive independence but everything points towards a high tax nanny state Unless the right wing who aren't the tories come to power we are looking at labour for a few decades The current people in the SNP will not go away but the SNP as we know it will. I find it hard to believe that they will join any of the other three main parties. Tell you what, you and I can start the party we feel that an independent Scotland needs! Let me control environmental policy (it'll be harsh but fair) and you can organise welfare, economics etc. Deal? It will need to be called The Pictish Nation tho! 
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mcdjl
1,605 posts
64 months
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ViperPict said: The current people in the SNP will not go away but the SNP as we know it will. I find it hard to believe that they will join any of the other three main parties. Tell you what, you and I can start the party we feel that an independent Scotland needs! Let me control environmental policy (it'll be harsh but fair) and you can organise welfare, economics etc. Deal? It will need to be called The Pictish Nation tho! Do we have to accept/reject the deal without knowing what the environmental policy will be?
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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The primary law will be to honour nature. And we're not talking about rhetoric about climate change but actual real stuff re. ecosystem processes.
Re-establishment of a functioning ecosystem in prescribed areas. That means reintroduction of the top predator and everything required to permit that. Farmers can do one - they get more that enough subsidy as it is.
All economic development can occur as long as it does not impact ecology. And that is as much for the benefit of the economy as anything else - a naturally functioning ecosystem has direct economic benefits (or, rather, a disfunctional one is very costly).
Stepping down from soap box now...
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s2art
13,163 posts
122 months
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ViperPict said: That means reintroduction of the top predator and everything required to permit that. Farmers can do one - they get more that enough subsidy as it is. So, hunting with dogs it is then. Couldnt agree more. We are the top predator.
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thinfourth2
23,546 posts
73 months
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ViperPict said: Tell you what, you and I can start the party we feel that an independent Scotland needs! Let me control environmental policy (it'll be harsh but fair) and you can organise welfare, economics etc. Deal? It will need to be called The Pictish Nation tho! Ned fired power station Low CO2 and it improves the enviroment
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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s2art said: ViperPict said: That means reintroduction of the top predator and everything required to permit that. Farmers can do one - they get more that enough subsidy as it is. So, hunting with dogs it is then. Couldnt agree more. We are the top predator. We are not a functional top predator. Far from it. Killing the top predator will be the only capital offense.
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: Tell you what, you and I can start the party we feel that an independent Scotland needs! Let me control environmental policy (it'll be harsh but fair) and you can organise welfare, economics etc. Deal? It will need to be called The Pictish Nation tho! Ned fired power station Low CO2 and it improves the enviroment Presumably after we have stripped them of any quality meat on their malnourished bones...
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Caulkhead
4,938 posts
26 months
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ViperPict said: The current people in the SNP will not go away but the SNP as we know it will. I find it hard to believe that they will join any of the other three main parties. So you get independence, the SNP melt away leaving a free hand for labour who decide independence isn't all it's cracked up to be and hold a referendum to apply to rejoin the union. . . . . . . .
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mcdjl
1,605 posts
64 months
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ViperPict said: We are not a functional top predator. Far from it.
Killing the top predator will be the only capital offense. A quick google check suggests that its currently the wildcat, sea eagle or man. if you want to reintroduce something then wolf, bear, golden eagle would be favourites. Either way given the tools at our disposal by most definition man would be the top predator. That aside I'm not sure I fancy the sound of your plan.
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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Caulkhead said: ViperPict said: The current people in the SNP will not go away but the SNP as we know it will. I find it hard to believe that they will join any of the other three main parties. So you get independence, the SNP melt away leaving a free hand for labour who decide independence isn't all it's cracked up to be and hold a referendum to apply to rejoin the union. . . . . . . . That would be rather unprecedented. And it assumes Labour would win. Far from a foregone conclusion. There are many in Scotland that are totally disllusioned with Scottish Labour.
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thinfourth2
23,546 posts
73 months
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ViperPict said: thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: Tell you what, you and I can start the party we feel that an independent Scotland needs! Let me control environmental policy (it'll be harsh but fair) and you can organise welfare, economics etc. Deal? It will need to be called The Pictish Nation tho! Ned fired power station Low CO2 and it improves the enviroment Presumably after we have stripped them of any quality meat on their malnourished bones... Don't be stupid They won't burn as well if you strip the government sponsored fat off them
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thinfourth2
23,546 posts
73 months
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ViperPict said: Caulkhead said: ViperPict said: The current people in the SNP will not go away but the SNP as we know it will. I find it hard to believe that they will join any of the other three main parties. So you get independence, the SNP melt away leaving a free hand for labour who decide independence isn't all it's cracked up to be and hold a referendum to apply to rejoin the union. . . . . . . . That would be rather unprecedented. And it assumes Labour would win. Far from a foregone conclusion. There are many in Scotland that are totally disllusioned with Scottish Labour. Oh here we go again Parties in Scotland Tory = Can't vote tory as if you vote tory then maggie thatcher will get into power SNP = Can't vote them as they will vanish Lib Dems =  yeah right Greens = See lib dems Scottish socialists = Do you want to see them running scotland (don't answer that) That leaves Scottish labour or the secret party
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: Tell you what, you and I can start the party we feel that an independent Scotland needs! Let me control environmental policy (it'll be harsh but fair) and you can organise welfare, economics etc. Deal? It will need to be called The Pictish Nation tho! Ned fired power station Low CO2 and it improves the enviroment No, we just strip the lean tissue. The fat can be burnt. I may be thinking this through a bit much... Presumably after we have stripped them of any quality meat on their malnourished bones... Don't be stupid They won't burn as well if you strip the government sponsored fat off them We only strip the lean tissue. The fat can be burnt for fuel. I think that I may be thinking this through a bit too much...
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WhereamI
6,093 posts
86 months
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For those who think that Scotland has a wonderful future as an oil producer...
"Yesterday’s Guardian article comes closer to addressing the reality of the situation, referring to jokes about the North Sea as the “Dead Sea” and the fact that “the precipitous decline in the domestic oil and gas industry… not only makes Britain more reliant on foreign imports but also reduces Treasury tax take.”
It states, “North Sea crude and gas production fell 17% in 2011, one of its biggest ever annual drops, while the number of exploration well drilled was down by half on 2010.”
DECC maintains an interesting section which allows us to examine the production record of individual fields. An examination of the once-mighty Forties, Brent, etc reveals what “terminal decline” actually looks like.
In many respects, Britain seems poised to lead the western world in grappling with peak oil. The UK oil and gas bonanza is nearing its end, and Britons must come to grips with what they once had and how rapidly it slipped away. In this respect, they provide a warning to nations such as Canada, which is about to repeat the same mistake (ie. a rapid international sell-off of its remaining oil and gas)."
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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WhereamI said: For those who think that Scotland has a wonderful future as an oil producer...
"Yesterday’s Guardian article comes closer to addressing the reality of the situation, referring to jokes about the North Sea as the “Dead Sea” and the fact that “the precipitous decline in the domestic oil and gas industry… not only makes Britain more reliant on foreign imports but also reduces Treasury tax take.”
It states, “North Sea crude and gas production fell 17% in 2011, one of its biggest ever annual drops, while the number of exploration well drilled was down by half on 2010.”
DECC maintains an interesting section which allows us to examine the production record of individual fields. An examination of the once-mighty Forties, Brent, etc reveals what “terminal decline” actually looks like.
In many respects, Britain seems poised to lead the western world in grappling with peak oil. The UK oil and gas bonanza is nearing its end, and Britons must come to grips with what they once had and how rapidly it slipped away. In this respect, they provide a warning to nations such as Canada, which is about to repeat the same mistake (ie. a rapid international sell-off of its remaining oil and gas)." Really depends who you listen to. And you're never going to quote one of the articles that proposes a healthy future, are you? You have an axe to grind now! 
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