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gmasterfunk

71 posts

17 months

[news] 
Friday 13th July 2012 quote quote all
Slightly down on power, but a clio V6?

Edit and a bit fat too at 1475Kg

Edited by gmasterfunk on Friday 13th July 22:27


Edited by gmasterfunk on Friday 13th July 22:28

interloper

2,072 posts

124 months

[news] 
Friday 13th July 2012 quote quote all
I would just like to know were, when and who built all these sub 1200kg, mid engined, multi cylinder'ed naturally aspirated sports cars that the OP must be referring to given the thread title?


Randy Winkman

1,990 posts

58 months

[news] 
Friday 13th July 2012 quote quote all
Chilliman said:
Randy Winkman said:
kambites said:
Whether it's "technically correct" or not "mid engined", used in isolation, means "with the engine between the passenger cell and the rear axle to the vast majority of people.
I agree.
Maybe thats because the 'vast majority' don't understand what 'mid engined' actually means wink
Are you referring to marketing claptrap that some companies come out with to try to convince us that their front engined car is better than some else's front engined car because the engine is a few centimetres further back?

Is an E-Type Jag "mid engined"?


Chilliman

3,417 posts

30 months

[news] 
Friday 13th July 2012 quote quote all
Randy Winkman said:
Chilliman said:
Randy Winkman said:
kambites said:
Whether it's "technically correct" or not "mid engined", used in isolation, means "with the engine between the passenger cell and the rear axle to the vast majority of people.
I agree.
Maybe thats because the 'vast majority' don't understand what 'mid engined' actually means wink
Are you referring to marketing claptrap that some companies come out with to try to convince us that their front engined car is better than some else's front engined car because the engine is a few centimetres further back?

Is an E-Type Jag "mid engined"?

I'm not referring to anything, and if you read my post again you'll see it was a simple statement with no reference or innuedo at all. I simply said that alot (the vast majority) of people don't understand what mid engined means... chill out smile

interloper

2,072 posts

124 months

[news] 
Friday 13th July 2012 quote quote all
Randy Winkman said:
Is an E-Type Jag "mid engined"?

Technically yes, E types, TVRs, Caterhams Corvettes etc have the engine as far back from the front wheels as possible for better balance (technically known as front/mid). Some front engine cars have the block much further forward, a really good example is the old Audi quattro set up, front engine entirely ahead of the front axle, understeer ahoy!
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Max_Torque

4,812 posts

86 months

[news] 
Friday 13th July 2012 quote quote all
boxerTen said:
So:

911 GT3: too heavy, not mid-engined.
No, you're right, the Gt3 is a terrible car, really not a sports car at all, and wow, what a tubby thing it is too, so heavy i'm suprised it can even move.........

here's one trying to move it's fat ar*e along a flat bit of road and failing:




;-)


(i suspect the OP has a) never driven a GT3, and b) can't afford one either )

Randy Winkman

1,990 posts

58 months

[news] 
Friday 13th July 2012 quote quote all
Chilliman said:
I'm not referring to anything, and if you read my post again you'll see it was a simple statement with no reference or innuedo at all. I simply said that alot (the vast majority) of people don't understand what mid engined means... chill out smile
Apologies - I clearly (still) don't understand your post. smile

boxerTen

Original Poster:

146 posts

73 months

[news] 
Friday 13th July 2012 quote quote all
Oh dear.

I'm not trying to define what a proper modern sports car is - merely using that phrase as shorthand for a lightweight, mid-engined, throttle responsive car.

Can manufacturers build light-weight cars? Lotus, TVR, Noble, McLaren, even Ferrari if it puts its mind to it.
Can they build brilliant n/a engines? Porsche, BMW, Honda, Ferrari.
Can they build mid-engined cars? Porsche, Audi, Lotus, etc.

Can they do all three. Yes. But none bother - which was my original point.

For what its worth I think a Lotus Exige V6 is perhaps the best fit. If one were to build one's own then a GT3-engined Ultima perhaps but I lack the expertise for such a project, particularly the complications of reversing the direction of rotation of the drivetrain.


McHaggis

7,677 posts

24 months

[news] 
Friday 13th July 2012 quote quote all
Still trying to work out the obsession with mid-engined to be honest.

Its a reasonable option, but rear or even, dare I say it, front engined, RWD has made some fine, responsive cars... I just don't think (and judging by the manufacturers, nor do they) think mid-engined is a way to go, even in niche.

Possibly because of packaging / platform standardisation, but also because a rear engined car (eg. 911) isn't trying to kill you all of the time these days. Just some of the time.

boxerTen

Original Poster:

146 posts

73 months

[news] 
Saturday 14th July 2012 quote quote all
xRIEx said:
This (latter) sentence says it all: who the hell are you to say what is a 'proper' sports car? You're not short of arrogance, are you? Is a 458 not a proper sportscar because it's 300Kg too heavy for your liking? An Ultima GTR is not a proper sportscar (OK, bordering on supercar depending on the engine) because it's a kit? A Noble is not a proper sportscar because it's got turbos? A Caterham Levante isn't a proper sportscar because it's got the engine up front? In fact, I'd like to see how well you could handle that latter non-sportscar.

Still waiting for you to tell us what is a proper sportscar.

Edited by xRIEx on Friday 13th July 22:07
The 458 is a GT. The Ultima is a proper sports car but one that I don't have the expertise to build with a suitable high-revving engine. The Noble is compromised by its turbos but likely brilliant otherwise. The Caterham is compromised (a little) by its engine position. As are 911s. They both inherit their design from pre-mid-engined thinking days. Hence Ariel's Atom more modern choice of engine position - but it lacks a roof. I want a roof (and a cage), not to keep the rain out, but to keep the ground out in the unlikely event of an off-road excursion of the inverted variety.

interloper

2,072 posts

124 months

[news] 
Saturday 14th July 2012 quote quote all
boxerTen said:
Hence Ariel's Atom more modern choice of engine position - but it lacks a roof. I want a roof (and a cage), not to keep the rain out, but to keep the ground out in the unlikely event of an off-road excursion of the inverted variety.
The Aerial is slightly flawed as it is mid layout but the engine sit transversely. Its a good set up by if you are going to discount the Caterham and 911 on engine location then you have to realise Aerials, Elises, Exiges etc are slightly too rear biased and flawed as well!

Dusty964

5,424 posts

59 months

[news] 
Saturday 14th July 2012 quote quote all
I can only suggest that having discounted virtually every brand that makes a likely candidate for one ridiculous reason or another, that you get sit down this morning with your crayons and design your own.



I wish you luck.


Wadeski

5,742 posts

82 months

[news] 
Saturday 14th July 2012 quote quote all
OP is a bit of a tit, isn't he?

Scuffers

10,408 posts

143 months

[news] 
Saturday 14th July 2012 quote quote all
interloper said:
boxerTen said:
Hence Ariel's Atom more modern choice of engine position - but it lacks a roof. I want a roof (and a cage), not to keep the rain out, but to keep the ground out in the unlikely event of an off-road excursion of the inverted variety.
The Aerial is slightly flawed as it is mid layout but the engine sit transversely. Its a good set up by if you are going to discount the Caterham and 911 on engine location then you have to realise Aerials, Elises, Exiges etc are slightly too rear biased and flawed as well!
careful...

just because a Caterham is front engined, it's wrong?

please then explain why it can run rings round an Atom in just about every respect?

And before you tar Lotus's with your huge brush, what's wrong with ~60/40% distribution? (and anybody that thinks 50/50 is ideal please take yourselves outside and shoot yourself).

other point that is vastly important but mostly ignored is how high up the engine is (and it's effect on COG), this is one of the reasons the Atom is so crap.

And whilst I am here, the OP has clearly not driven a decent supercharged car, apart from not being 'overly complex' as he put it, they also offer similar throttle response as NA engines.


hunt_the_fox

1,022 posts

94 months

[news] 
Saturday 14th July 2012 quote quote all
I don't understand the OPs obsession with labelling everything that is over a certain weight as a GT. Also in common with a lot of others I'd like a list of non modern cars that fulfill the criteria from the good old days that never existed.

xRIEx

1,420 posts

17 months

[news] 
Saturday 14th July 2012 quote quote all
boxerTen said:
I'm not trying to define what a proper modern sports car is - merely using that phrase as shorthand for a lightweight, mid-engined, throttle responsive car.
roflrofl

That statement is amazing! fk me, this is some funny st.



I was already to counter the OP's latest comments, when it hit me: OP, you're not a driver (or rather, a driving enthusiast). Quite simply, a driver will know it's how a car feels to drive that is important, not the specific power, nor if a car is 1199kg as opposed to 1201kg.

The MX-5 is often touted on here as the ultimate all-round driver's car, a 4-cylinder, front-engined, sub-300bhp, under 90bhp/litre roadster without a real* roof.

You're obsessed with what is written on the spec sheet. Serious question, are you of driving age and if so, what cars have you driven to bring you to the conclusion in this thread?

 * wink

Max_Torque

4,812 posts

86 months

[news] 
Saturday 14th July 2012 quote quote all
boxerTen said:
The Caterham is compromised by its engine position.
Never before, in the history of the universe have these words been uttered! The Caterham is brilliant BECAUSE of its engine position!


Here's a Caterham being massively compromised by its awful engine position earlier:




;-)

Derek Chevalier

663 posts

42 months

[news] 
Saturday 14th July 2012 quote quote all
Scuffers said:
interloper said:
boxerTen said:
Hence Ariel's Atom more modern choice of engine position - but it lacks a roof. I want a roof (and a cage), not to keep the rain out, but to keep the ground out in the unlikely event of an off-road excursion of the inverted variety.
The Aerial is slightly flawed as it is mid layout but the engine sit transversely. Its a good set up by if you are going to discount the Caterham and 911 on engine location then you have to realise Aerials, Elises, Exiges etc are slightly too rear biased and flawed as well!
careful...

just because a Caterham is front engined, it's wrong?

please then explain why it can run rings round an Atom in just about every respect?

And before you tar Lotus's with your huge brush, what's wrong with ~60/40% distribution? (and anybody that thinks 50/50 is ideal please take yourselves outside and shoot yourself).

other point that is vastly important but mostly ignored is how high up the engine is (and it's effect on COG), this is one of the reasons the Atom is so crap.

And whilst I am here, the OP has clearly not driven a decent supercharged car, apart from not being 'overly complex' as he put it, they also offer similar throttle response as NA engines.
Having driven both the Caterham and Atom at Palmersport a few weeks ago, I can confirm that once the Atom lets go, it's very hard for a mere mortal to hold it - high up engine definitely made a difference.

heebeegeetee

19,531 posts

117 months

[news] 
Saturday 14th July 2012 quote quote all
boxerTen said:
The 458 is a GT. The Ultima is a proper sports car but one that I don't have the expertise to build with a suitable high-revving engine. The Noble is compromised by its turbos but likely brilliant otherwise. The Caterham is compromised (a little) by its engine position. As are 911s. They both inherit their design from pre-mid-engined thinking days. Hence Ariel's Atom more modern choice of engine position - but it lacks a roof. I want a roof (and a cage), not to keep the rain out, but to keep the ground out in the unlikely event of an off-road excursion of the inverted variety.
Have you driven any of these cars though?

You want a road car, I presume, not a race car. If so, then I would say to you that you're incorrect to seek mid-engined because mid-engined cars do not make the best road cars imo. You end up with a car like my Boxster which has masses of grip, can corner very quickly indeed, but by gum you'd better be quick when it lets go because it goes very quickly indeed.

And to be honest, the public road is not the place to be exploring the limits of such grip, because such antics are as socially acceptable as drink-driving, or should be. Ahem.

The Caterham is not compromised in any way by it's engine position. Nor is the Elise, despite it being rear-engined (and it *is* rear engined). Both of these cars are brilliant sports cars. I would pick the Elise of the two because it has a decent sized rear boot (or the one I looked at had).

Ah yes, luggage space. A sports car should be great to drive, so there is no reason at all why the driving of such a car should be confined to a radius around one's home. A sports car should be taken on long drives, which may involve nights, or many nights, away from home. This means it needs some luggage space.

FYI OP, Porsche's first road car was mid-engined but they moved the engine to the rear when it went into production. Ferdinand Porsche had also designed the pre-war mid-engined Auto Union, so you are incorrect to say that the 911 was pre-mid-engined thinking. It's the other way round.

I can understand your desire for multi-cylinders, but I think weight, size and packaging within the car should come first.

That beautiful, beautiful 904 in that earlier picture may be what you are seeking, but I would also suggest it would make a fairly horrendous road car. It will be too noisy, too hot inside and too compromised to make a great road car.

And I'd also like to say that that earlier picture of the Evora shows that there is no way on God's earth can that car be described as mid-engined. Kick the rear passenger out and turn the engine in-line, and then it will be mid-engined.


kambites

32,864 posts

90 months

[news] 
Saturday 14th July 2012 quote quote all
Chilliman said:
Randy Winkman said:
kambites said:
Whether it's "technically correct" or not "mid engined", used in isolation, means "with the engine between the passenger cell and the rear axle to the vast majority of people.
I agree.
Maybe thats because the 'vast majority' don't understand what 'mid engined' actually means wink
It's just one of those terms that's come to mean something slightly different from its original definition. There's plenty of them. smile

Mid-engined, with its literal definition, is a rather useless term because both in engineer and handling terms, a front-mid engined car has little in common with a rear-mid engined car.
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