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youngsyr

Original Poster:

6,774 posts

61 months

[news] 
Thursday 2nd August 2012 quote quote all
Perhaps it's because I'm tired and not thinking straight, but why isn't it feasible to have a a 747 (or equivalent) take off using convential jet engines, climb to 30,000 ft, then ditch the wings and engines (on parachutes) and use rocket engines and small control surfaces to propel it at >2,000 mph across the atlantic, before descending on a parachute?

Pros:
Less/lighter fuel to carry 3,000 miles
Significantly faster (cheaper?) than jet engine

Cons:
Rockets explode unexpectedly from time to time
Descent/landing mechanism is complex
Recovery of wings/jet engines is complex
Some types of rockets cannot be turned off once fired

I'm just thinking there must be a way to revolutionise air transport with modern technology - we've effectively stood still (or gone backwards - Concorde) since the 1960s.

Eric Mc

67,253 posts

134 months

[news] 
Thursday 2nd August 2012 quote quote all
Rockets can only give thrust for very short periods of time - usually not much more than ten minutes as they burn their fuel at an astonishing rate. Look at the Space Shuttle. Its rocket motors only fired for about 10 minutes - and look at the size of the fuel tank needed.

And, if a rocket COULD accelerate a 747 to much higher speeds, the aircraft would have to be redsigned completely to cope with those high supersonic or even hypersonic speeds. Imagine a 300 seater X-15?

youngsyr

Original Poster:

6,774 posts

61 months

[news] 
Thursday 2nd August 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
Rockets can only give thrust for very short periods of time - usually not much more than ten minutes as they burn their fuel at an astonishing rate. Look at the Space Shuttle. Its rocket motors only fired for about 10 minutes - and look at the size of the fuel tank needed.

And, if a rocket COULD accelerate a 747 to much higher speeds, the aircraft would have to be redsigned completely to cope with those high supersonic or even hypersonic speeds. Imagine a 300 seater X-15?
A ha, I see - I was labouring (daydreaming) under the assumption that rockets don't use that much fuel.

Obviously the space shuttle does, but that is climbing near vertical for all 10 minutes and is travelling at ridiculous speeds (>20,000mph?) to reach escape velocity. Any ideas how much fuel would be needed once the plane is at altitude (perhaps 60,000ft to reduce drag on the plane) to travel at a few thousand miles per hour (say 5,000 mph) and retain altitude?

I take your point on the structure needing to be stronger on a faster rocket/jet, but we could build planes that flew at 3,000 miles per hour 40 years ago out of titanium (SR-71), so it must be childs play now we have modern composites (carbon fibre etc)?

Eric Mc

67,253 posts

134 months

[news] 
Thursday 2nd August 2012 quote quote all
youngsyr said:
Eric Mc said:
Rockets can only give thrust for very short periods of time - usually not much more than ten minutes as they burn their fuel at an astonishing rate. Look at the Space Shuttle. Its rocket motors only fired for about 10 minutes - and look at the size of the fuel tank needed.

And, if a rocket COULD accelerate a 747 to much higher speeds, the aircraft would have to be redsigned completely to cope with those high supersonic or even hypersonic speeds. Imagine a 300 seater X-15?
A ha, I see - I was labouring (daydreaming) under the assumption that rockets don't use that much fuel.

Obviously the space shuttle does, but that is climbing near vertical for all 10 minutes and is travelling at ridiculous speeds (>20,000mph?) to reach escape velocity. Any ideas how much fuel would be needed once the plane is at altitude (perhaps 60,000ft to reduce drag on the plane) to travel at a few thousand miles per hour (say 5,000 mph) and retain altitude?

I take your point on the structure needing to be stronger on a faster rocket/jet, but we could build planes that flew at 3,000 miles per hour 40 years ago out of titanium (SR-71), so it must be childs play now we have modern composites (carbon fibre etc)?
Actually, the Shuttle is only completely vertical for about the first 10 seconds after launch. If you recall there was the radio call, "Roll Manoeuver Complete" which was the moment where the entire Shuttle rolled and pitched at an angle that took it out over the Atlantic in a gradually curving arc. By the time of main engine cut-off (MECO) they were flying parallel to the earth's surface at an altitude of about 130 plus miles and travelling at almost 17,500 mph.

There are massive problems with maintaining high speeds within the earth's atmosphere - mainly associated with aerodynamic heating through friction with the atmosphere. The SR71 was made of titanium to enable it to fly at Mach 3 (about 2,000 mph - not 3,000 mph). That, of course, was jet powered, not rocket powered, and needed to be refuelled in mid air numerous times during a mission. Titanium is also expensive stuff and not practical for airliners in large quantities.
The fastest atmospheric aircraft ever, the X-15, was made from even more exotic metals, such is Iconel X - which allowed it to reach speeds within the atmosphere of up to Mach 6.7. But even then, the structure became very hot and on the one and only Mach 6.7 flight, the structure was so badly heat damaged that the X-15 never flew again.
Being rocket powered, the X-15 needed to be hauled to altitude under a B-52 and even with large strap-on fuel tanks, only had enough fuel for about 5 to 10 minutes of powered flight.

Finally, rockets are bloody dangerous. They would never be sanctioned for an aircraft designed to take litle old grannies and toddlers on a jaunt across the Atlantic.


youngsyr

Original Poster:

6,774 posts

61 months

[news] 
Thursday 2nd August 2012 quote quote all
Thanks Eric - all interesting reading, but the X-15 and SR-71 are 1960s technology, I'm not sure how modern composites stand up to extreme temperatures, but surely we must have made some advances in the last 50 years?

Even if we bring the speed down to 3,000 mph, that's still 5 times faster than conventional airliners.
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Eric Mc

67,253 posts

134 months

[news] 
Thursday 2nd August 2012 quote quote all
youngsyr said:
Thanks Eric - all interesting reading, but the X-15 and SR-71 are 1960s technology, I'm not sure how modern composites stand up to extreme temperatures, but surely we must have made some advances in the last 50 years?

Even if we bring the speed down to 3,000 mph, that's still 5 times faster than conventional airliners.
I don't think composites confer massive amounts of heat resistance over metals. their main benefit is strength/lightness. The big area of improvement in heat protection is in the use of glasses and ceramics. The Shuttle was protected by ceramic tiles which, in theory, were reusable - although they had their problems. They certainly worked, as long as they remained attached, but they were extremely vulnerable to damage from the slightest impact. Even rain drops would destroy a ceramic tile at high speeds.

I couldn't see a commercial operator wanting to operate a machine that had a vulnerable heat protection system attached to it.

The jet/rocket combination has been tried on some aircraft. It has always proved very, very difficult to handle and has always been abandoned as a practical proposition.
The nearest thing to the regular use of rockets on "normal" aeroplanes has been the JATO system which is sometimes used to allow heavilly laden transports and bombers get out of tight airfields. And even this system has fallen out of favour in recent years as conventional jet and turboprop engines are now so powerful the need for rocket assistance is almost ancient history.

Some examples of JATO -






dr_gn

6,909 posts

53 months

[news] 
Thursday 2nd August 2012 quote quote all
youngsyr said:
Perhaps it's because I'm tired and not thinking straight, but why isn't it feasible to have a a 747 (or equivalent) take off using convential jet engines, climb to 30,000 ft, then ditch the wings and engines (on parachutes) and use rocket engines and small control surfaces to propel it at >2,000 mph across the atlantic, before descending on a parachute?

Pros:
Less/lighter fuel to carry 3,000 miles
Significantly faster (cheaper?) than jet engine

Cons:
Rockets explode unexpectedly from time to time
Descent/landing mechanism is complex
Recovery of wings/jet engines is complex
Some types of rockets cannot be turned off once fired

I'm just thinking there must be a way to revolutionise air transport with modern technology - we've effectively stood still (or gone backwards - Concorde) since the 1960s.
You're potentially talking about something like an adaption of this, which is currently being investigated (and has been for a while). The SABRE engines are dsigned to do pretty much exactly what you suggest without having to ditch the engines:



"Skylon is a design for a spaceplane by the British company Reaction Engines Limited (REL). It uses a combined-cycle, air-breathing rocket engine to reach orbit in a single stage."

"The engines are designed to operate much like a conventional jet engine[citation needed] at up to around Mach 5.5 (1700 m/s),[35] 26 kilometres (16 mi) altitude, beyond which the air inlet closes and the engine operates as a highly efficient rocket to orbital speed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_Engines_Skyl...



Max_Torque

4,805 posts

86 months

[news] 
Thursday 2nd August 2012 quote quote all
There is no techincal reason to prevent your idea from being developed.

There is also no economic reason to justify that development!


In the 1960's the USA plowed tens of billions of dollars into ultra high speed reconisance aircraft like the SR-71. Not one of these planes was lost to "enemy action", and it turned out that the planes real enemy, the politics that finally ended the program in the early 1990's, was rooted a lot closer to home as the incredible cost of the program became untenable to successive US regimes..............


Ultuous

1,614 posts

60 months

[news] 
Thursday 2nd August 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
Rockets can only give thrust for very short periods of time - usually not much more than ten minutes as they burn their fuel at an astonishing rate. Look at the Space Shuttle. Its rocket motors only fired for about 10 minutes - and look at the size of the fuel tank needed.
yes I was going to throw in the term Specific Fuel Consumption - a quick look on Wiki reveals an interesting comparison for different types of engine (including Concorde's 593s etc.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_fuel_consump...

IanMorewood

2,343 posts

117 months

[news] 
Thursday 2nd August 2012 quote quote all
Yep can you imagine paying passengers getting on an aircraft with panel gaps big enough to stick your finger in and the smell of aviation fuel as you load up through the puddle of fuel.

Scram jets are probably the way forward for high speed at altitude, trouble is getting there in the first place.

Mave

1,018 posts

84 months

[news] 
Thursday 2nd August 2012 quote quote all
Just think about how many commercial flights there actually are, every minute, every day of the year. One a minute around Heathrow? That's 500,000 sets of wings / parachutes to recover every year , presumably from the North Sea because you don't want to drop them on London. And then you may be doing 2,000mph in the wrong direction...

2000 mph would make a significant difference to Transatlantic flights, but to European flights is wouldn't make a huge difference in the total check-in / security / board / fly / off load / get baggage / customs cycle (which is where I think most of the effort should be!) but would massively change what you do with flight corridors; probably don't want 700mph and 2,000mph aircraft on the same flight corridors

Composites are great in stiffness, but poor in thermal protection. Titanium is good for thermal protection, but a bit of a pig to manufacture, and havier than aluminium alloys / composites.

Finally, I'd hate to think what the emissions of a rocket propulsion system would be, when most engine effort is aimed at reducing emissions (and fuel consumption)

Talksteer

2,337 posts

102 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Mave said:
Finally, I'd hate to think what the emissions of a rocket propulsion system would be, when most engine effort is aimed at reducing emissions (and fuel consumption)
Over the course of its lifetime a civil airliner will burn ~$1 billion of fuel, which is why long haul airline frequently turn over their fleet for newer aircraft with older planes going to cargo operators and charter airlines.

Given that the aircraft burns many times it's purchase price in fuel you can see that for long haul fuel costs are pretty dominant. Anything which flies faster will burn a lot more fuel and therefore cost a lot more to operate.

The economic argument for long range high speed flight has already been tried and lost with Concord.

Simpo Two

54,197 posts

134 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Talksteer said:
The economic argument for long range high speed flight has already been tried and lost with Concord.
True; people prefer cheap to fast. But if you could get to NZ in 3 hours instead of 24 it would be tempting.

youngsyr

Original Poster:

6,774 posts

61 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Simpo Two said:
Talksteer said:
The economic argument for long range high speed flight has already been tried and lost with Concord.
True; people prefer cheap to fast. But if you could get to NZ in 3 hours instead of 24 it would be tempting.
I guess that's what's prompting my question - Concorde was developed druing the 1960s, has the game not moved on a bit since then?

Ultuous

1,614 posts

60 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Moved on yes, but the basic maths of ideal cycle effiency still makes it cost-prohibitive, especially with modern societal attitudes towards the environment and the capabilities of modern communications!

Eric Mc

67,253 posts

134 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
And that type of basic technology has not moved on enough to make rocket power either an economical nor a safe proposition for everyday use.

I doubt if it ever will. As has been mentioned, the best chance to see rocket technology work on a more practical level is something like Skylon - but that is still quite some way in the future.

Hugo a Gogo

15,131 posts

102 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
technically, a rocket engine IS a jet engine, simply one that carries all its 'reaction material' with it, as opposed to a 'conventional' jet, which uses oxygen from the atmosphere

if you are flying within the atmosphere, and it has oxygen in it, you might as well use it

Max_Torque

4,805 posts

86 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Talksteer said:
The economic argument for long range high speed flight has already been tried and lost with Concord.
Don't let Tony Ben see you spell it that way, or the Entente Cordiale might be lost ;-)

youngsyr

Original Poster:

6,774 posts

61 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Thinking about it, Eric must be right and I doubt it has anything to do with the environment or communications as the US military seems to have abandoned superfast fighter jets and they have neither the environmental concerns nor the redundancy caused by improved communications.

It's a shame though, as I believe significantly improved/faster civilian transport would reap large benefits for the world, but everywhere I look I see transport actually becoming slower. frown

Simpo Two

54,197 posts

134 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
youngsyr said:
everywhere I look I see transport actually becoming slower. frown
Too many people travelling as the cost travel gets relatively cheaper?

When Thomas Cook started in 18-something you had to be landed gentry to tour Europe; now any chav can do it with benefit money. And so all roads and trains and planes are crammed.
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