So, Pirelli admit that their tyres are crap....
Discussion
Crafty_ said:
Scuffers said:
they could have said no.
Customer (i.e. the FIA) is always right.Besides making indestructable tyres didn't to Michelin much good did it ?
ked because of Indianapolis? And their tyres must have been good at the time as the majority of the grid were running them rather than Bridgestone if I recall correctly? Ahh found some info on it.
Another change to the tyre rules came in 2005, forcing teams to run the entire race without changing tyres, and this resulted in Michelin enjoying a near-perfect season.
The only race they failed to win was in Indianapolis, where they discovered their tyres couldn’t run through the unique, fast, banked turn 13. While the FIA refused to accept a compromise solution that would have allowed the Michelin teams to participate, the race was contested by just the Bridgestone teams, which by now numbered just Ferrari plus Jordan and Minardi.
The FIA reversed the ‘no tyre change’ rule for 2006 but for the second year running the championships went to a Michelin-shod team and driver. But with the sport’s governing body preparing to introduce a single tyre supplier from 2008, Michelin left once more, and Bridgestone has been F1′s single tyre supplier from 2007.
Scuffers said:
Hog-wash.
never heard so much cr4p.
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of formula racing, not an eco-drive on comedy tyres.
FFS, might just as well put them all in F3 cars, at least we would see some real racing.
never heard so much cr4p.
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of formula racing, not an eco-drive on comedy tyres.
FFS, might just as well put them all in F3 cars, at least we would see some real racing.
I love how you get so wound up by this. F1 is supposed to be <insert some generic macho crap about "REAL" racing, whatever that means>
Call it 'thermal degradation', for all I know, this year's tyres seem to give the teams a different challenge to last years. Tyre degradation in the traditional sense was managed to a larger degree by the drivers, but the '13 spec tyres are involving the car designers too. This has got to be a good thing in my eyes. What these '13 spec tyres have done is completely challenge the way car designers and drivers have thought about managing tyres. And of course, nobody likes it when the status quo is challenged. So what? It's the pinnacle of formula racing after all.
Crafty_ said:
To keep the teams on the back foot.
If the tyres were the same as last year the teams could simply run hundreds or thousands of scenarios through from previous data and know exactly how to run their race. With a change in tyres previous data, whilst not useless will not be able to give you the definitive answer on how to run your race.
Its also (partly) to keep the game open. Over the last two years Red Bull have had the best car for the majority of the time, it was kind to tyres, easy to set up and easy to drive. Without changes to the tyres they'd just walk everything.
Hembry is scaremongering a bit with the "do you want us to give RB the edge" and has been somewhat duplicitous in some of the things he's said recently "The tyres (Lewis/Massa) didn't delaminate, it was debris" - oh really ? debris causes all the tread to fall off the carcass does it ?
"We don't have a test car" - they do. "The cars are approaching 2011 levels of downforce when they had EBDs, I don't think anyone could of expected that" - errm, I'd give a fair bet that the teams knew - they don't have wind tunnels running 24x7 for fun. In any case there is enough data about from previous races, tests + Pirellis own data on the current tyres to do race simulations - so they should of known exactly how the tyres would behave. Either they didn't do this or ignored the results.
Its not their fault they were asked to make tyres that would promote racing, by the same token they haven't been exactly honest about their own mistakes and problems.
They don't come across as naive but utterly retarded.If the tyres were the same as last year the teams could simply run hundreds or thousands of scenarios through from previous data and know exactly how to run their race. With a change in tyres previous data, whilst not useless will not be able to give you the definitive answer on how to run your race.
Its also (partly) to keep the game open. Over the last two years Red Bull have had the best car for the majority of the time, it was kind to tyres, easy to set up and easy to drive. Without changes to the tyres they'd just walk everything.
Hembry is scaremongering a bit with the "do you want us to give RB the edge" and has been somewhat duplicitous in some of the things he's said recently "The tyres (Lewis/Massa) didn't delaminate, it was debris" - oh really ? debris causes all the tread to fall off the carcass does it ?
"We don't have a test car" - they do. "The cars are approaching 2011 levels of downforce when they had EBDs, I don't think anyone could of expected that" - errm, I'd give a fair bet that the teams knew - they don't have wind tunnels running 24x7 for fun. In any case there is enough data about from previous races, tests + Pirellis own data on the current tyres to do race simulations - so they should of known exactly how the tyres would behave. Either they didn't do this or ignored the results.
Its not their fault they were asked to make tyres that would promote racing, by the same token they haven't been exactly honest about their own mistakes and problems.
Why on earth produce tyres that would degrade more for the next season and yet from their experience they should know the teams would be making gains over the winter.
REALIST123 said:
'Hembery told Autosport they never intended there to be four-stop races.
"We want to go back to having two or three-stop races," he added.
He said the problems had been caused by the performance increase of the leading cars, which are a second a lap faster than they were in 2012.
"They have basically been stressing everything too much, and probably we underestimated the performance," Hembery said.'
Unbelievable, just unbelievable.
"We want to go back to having two or three-stop races," he added.
He said the problems had been caused by the performance increase of the leading cars, which are a second a lap faster than they were in 2012.
"They have basically been stressing everything too much, and probably we underestimated the performance," Hembery said.'
Unbelievable, just unbelievable.
What an absolute balls up the last couple of years have been with the tyres.
Providing the teams a set of tyres for pre-season testing, development and set up for their cars and then constantly changing the construction throughout the season is ridiculous, it must waste countless resource for the teams for the sake of 'mixing things up'.
The lottery of race winners, none qualification running, a reduction in reward for pole-position, drivers racing at 8/10ths for 95% of a race and a large number of tyre failures - should not be regarded as of sporting interest for F1.
I do not buy into the 'historically drivers have always had to drive in some form of sympathy' either.
A driver with a mechanical concern would have the OPTION to either nurse or risk driving faster in the hope that the failure doesn't occur, with todays tyres it is INEVITABLE that they will fail so they have no choice but to drive in a sympathetic & slow manor.
Driving to the limit of a mechanical failure is skilful for driver and team throughout the season, driving to the limit of randomly decided tyre degradation on a race by race basis is simply artificial racing.
I don't know what the ideal tyre solution would be, but I would hope for tyres that do not change in construction throughout the season so that we can find out which team built and developed the best car and that they are durable enough to allow the drivers to push hard and show the fans why they are the greatest circuit racers.
Providing the teams a set of tyres for pre-season testing, development and set up for their cars and then constantly changing the construction throughout the season is ridiculous, it must waste countless resource for the teams for the sake of 'mixing things up'.
The lottery of race winners, none qualification running, a reduction in reward for pole-position, drivers racing at 8/10ths for 95% of a race and a large number of tyre failures - should not be regarded as of sporting interest for F1.
I do not buy into the 'historically drivers have always had to drive in some form of sympathy' either.
A driver with a mechanical concern would have the OPTION to either nurse or risk driving faster in the hope that the failure doesn't occur, with todays tyres it is INEVITABLE that they will fail so they have no choice but to drive in a sympathetic & slow manor.
Driving to the limit of a mechanical failure is skilful for driver and team throughout the season, driving to the limit of randomly decided tyre degradation on a race by race basis is simply artificial racing.
I don't know what the ideal tyre solution would be, but I would hope for tyres that do not change in construction throughout the season so that we can find out which team built and developed the best car and that they are durable enough to allow the drivers to push hard and show the fans why they are the greatest circuit racers.
Dr Z said:
I love how you get so wound up by this. F1 is supposed to be <insert some generic macho crap about "REAL" racing, whatever that means>
Call it 'thermal degradation', for all I know, this year's tyres seem to give the teams a different challenge to last years. Tyre degradation in the traditional sense was managed to a larger degree by the drivers, but the '13 spec tyres are involving the car designers too. This has got to be a good thing in my eyes. What these '13 spec tyres have done is completely challenge the way car designers and drivers have thought about managing tyres. And of course, nobody likes it when the status quo is challenged. So what? It's the pinnacle of formula racing after all.
The big flaw with your argument is that the designers weren't and aren't involved in the spec of the tyres. How are you supposed to design a car to optimise the use of a tyre, perhaps 12 months ahead, when even the tyre manufacturer, clearly, doesnt know what its characteristics will be?
This has been a failed attempt to confound the designers, emasculate the formula and create interest from the ignorant masses. To some extent that has apparently been achieved.
CocoUK said:
What an absolute balls up the last couple of years have been with the tyres.
Providing the teams a set of tyres for pre-season testing, development and set up for their cars and then constantly changing the construction throughout the season is ridiculous, it must waste countless resource for the teams for the sake of 'mixing things up'.
Did the constructions change much last year?Providing the teams a set of tyres for pre-season testing, development and set up for their cars and then constantly changing the construction throughout the season is ridiculous, it must waste countless resource for the teams for the sake of 'mixing things up'.
REALIST123 said:
The big flaw with your argument is that the designers weren't and aren't involved in the spec of the tyres. How are you supposed to design a car to optimise the use of a tyre, perhaps 12 months ahead, when even the tyre manufacturer, clearly, doesnt know what its characteristics will be?
Add that to the lack of in-season testing which means that the only time the teams and Pirelli get to test the tyres at representative track temperatures ( rather than at the cooler temps during winter testing ) means that they are both pretty much working in the dark and having to guess how to design a car to best utilise the tyres/design a tyre to stand up to the use it's going to getI'm sorry, but i disagree with 90% of ou in this.
At the end of last season, the teams met the tyres for this season.
They tested at the start, and knew what to expect.
Just because only Ferrari and Lotus have managed to correctly engineer their cars for the design parameters (in this case tyre heat), does not mean that Pirelli should cave in so that Merc (who's facility hasn't brought a sucessful car in 8 years) and Red Bull (who are frickin extreme, man) can have a better crack of the whip.
IMO changing the tyres mid season to keep red bull happy is just as completely arse as banning the Renault tuned mass damper to kep ferrari happy eyars ago. red bull are funding 2 teams, and so have too much hold over Bernie. It's exactly the same as when Ferarri were the crowd puller and had the influence.
I accept this is karma for ferrari, but it's well harsh on lotus. That team constantly brings innovations that get banned (tmd, suspension liked to brakes etc), only to see them banned. If others bring clever interpretations like double diffusers / flexi wings, they get to keep them. Finally, when lotus are competing on a flat playing field and doing well, the rules are changed again to suit the better lobbyists.
At the end of last season, the teams met the tyres for this season.
They tested at the start, and knew what to expect.
Just because only Ferrari and Lotus have managed to correctly engineer their cars for the design parameters (in this case tyre heat), does not mean that Pirelli should cave in so that Merc (who's facility hasn't brought a sucessful car in 8 years) and Red Bull (who are frickin extreme, man) can have a better crack of the whip.
IMO changing the tyres mid season to keep red bull happy is just as completely arse as banning the Renault tuned mass damper to kep ferrari happy eyars ago. red bull are funding 2 teams, and so have too much hold over Bernie. It's exactly the same as when Ferarri were the crowd puller and had the influence.
I accept this is karma for ferrari, but it's well harsh on lotus. That team constantly brings innovations that get banned (tmd, suspension liked to brakes etc), only to see them banned. If others bring clever interpretations like double diffusers / flexi wings, they get to keep them. Finally, when lotus are competing on a flat playing field and doing well, the rules are changed again to suit the better lobbyists.
Imo, the only reason Pirelli have changed the construction/composition was the worrying frequency of the words 'Pirelli' and 'st tyres' appearing in the same sentence throughout the press and internet.
I don't think they got involved in F1 so that worldwide audiences could see their tyres self destructing in a very public fashion.
t tyres' appearing in the same sentence throughout the press and internet. I don't think they got involved in F1 so that worldwide audiences could see their tyres self destructing in a very public fashion.
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