IAM Experiences/What put me/you off?
Discussion
SK425 said:
vonhosen said:
Incompetent is not doing it their way.
That is not fair comment IMO. I don't believe it is true for the sense of 'incompetent' that johnao actually meant, nor the sense that you apparently thought he meant.What activity was it being referred to?
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 23 May 16:38
vonhosen said:
SK425 said:
vonhosen said:
Incompetent is not doing it their way.
That is not fair comment IMO. I don't believe it is true for the sense of 'incompetent' that johnao actually meant, nor the sense that you apparently thought he meant.vonhosen said:
What activity was it being referred to?
Er... driving??? That answer seems too obvious - not sure I've appreciated the question you're asking there.SK425 said:
vonhosen said:
SK425 said:
vonhosen said:
Incompetent is not doing it their way.
That is not fair comment IMO. I don't believe it is true for the sense of 'incompetent' that johnao actually meant, nor the sense that you apparently thought he meant.SK425 said:
vonhosen said:
What activity was it being referred to?
Er... driving??? That answer seems too obvious - not sure I've appreciated the question you're asking there.johnao said:
vonhosen said:
Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully then.
Can't think that my choice of words was wrong or misleading or could have been more carefully chosen. You might consider, perhaps, the manner in which you misread, misunderstood or chose to misinterpret them.Rather than avoiding the issue that we're discussing by making diversionary comments like the one you posted above, perhaps you could address my earlier comment:
"... I think you would have difficulty in asserting that the first three items above do not apply to the vast majority of the 35 million UK licence holders."
Would you have difficulty, or not?
vonhosen said:
Right, so pejorative in relation to their driving.
No. The (un)conscious (in)competence thing is an academic model for the learning/skill development process. In that context, 'incompetent' is not pejorative. It's an appropriate adjective for the academic model - nothing more sinister than that.vonhosen said:
Not the best basis for a learning relationship.
Being pejorative wouldn't be, no. Not at all. But that's not what's being talked about is it. Nobody has suggested that a good way to start the relationship is "Welcome to the IAM. You are incompetent", have they.A belief on the part of the trainer that the (un)conscious (in)competence model is a useful model for the process is entirely compatible with a constructive and positive experience for the learner.
SK425 said:
vonhosen said:
Right, so pejorative in relation to their driving.
No. The (un)conscious (in)competence thing is an academic model for the learning/skill development process. In that context, 'incompetent' is not pejorative. It's an appropriate adjective for the academic model - nothing more sinister than that.vonhosen said:
Not the best basis for a learning relationship.
Being pejorative wouldn't be, no. Not at all. But that's not what's being talked about is it. Nobody has suggested that a good way to start the relationship is "Welcome to the IAM. You are incompetent", have they.A belief on the part of the trainer that the (un)conscious (in)competence model is a useful model for the process is entirely compatible with a constructive and positive experience for the learner.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 23 May 17:27
vonhosen said:
I disagree, I believe the vast majority would admit there is room for improvement in their driving. Few would say that their driving is perfect.
I suspect that most people, if asked, will say that their driving is pretty good, even though they've nothing to measure it against.Further to that, in their day-to-day lives, they will either think that they are "handy behind the wheel" (many blokes, fewer women) or never give it any thought (the majority).
A minority of drivers will be nervous and often overwhelmed, but not want to be told how to improve and prefer to be ignorant of the degree of their short-comings (often women, many older, but some young, and very old men).
From simple observation over time of people (fairly representative of Middle England, with a mix of modest/big/fast/expensive cars) leaving the office complex where I work, it is interesting to note that:
Many/most jump into their car and accelerate fairly hard down the road outside the office, past various exits(that other people often pull out of without looking) and probably don't consider it.
Many brake very sharply to a stop at the T-Junction at the end, rather than approaching more gently to check if anything is coming, before accelerating up to the inevitable traffic jam that can be seen almost as soon as one leaves the office.
Having crawled through the traffic to the motorway, many of them accelerate hard up the slip-road, swing across the lanes and proceed to tail-gate the cars in front, despite the usually full lanes of traffic moving at similar speeds.
I'd say that this sort of driving is fairly typical.
MC Bodge said:
vonhosen said:
I disagree, I believe the vast majority would admit there is room for improvement in their driving. Few would say that their driving is perfect.
I suspect that most people, if asked, will say that their driving is pretty good, even though they've nothing to measure it against.Further to that, in their day-to-day lives, they will either think that they are "handy behind the wheel" (many blokes, fewer women) or never give it any thought (the majority).
A minority of drivers will be nervous and often overwhelmed, but not want to be told how to improve and prefer to be ignorant of the degree of their short-comings (often women, many older, but some young, and very old men).
From simple observation over time of people (fairly representative of Middle England, with a mix of modest/big/fast/expensive cars) leaving the office complex where I work, it is interesting to note that:
Many/most jump into their car and accelerate fairly hard down the road outside the office, past various exits(that other people often pull out of without looking) and probably don't consider it.
Many brake very sharply to a stop at the T-Junction at the end, rather than approaching more gently to check if anything is coming, before accelerating up to the inevitable traffic jam that can be seen almost as soon as one leaves the office.
Having crawled through the traffic to the motorway, many of them accelerate hard up the slip-road, swing across the lanes and proceed to tail-gate the cars in front, despite the usually full lanes of traffic moving at similar speeds.
I'd say that this sort of driving is fairly typical.
vonhosen said:
I know it's an academic model, but the point is it is being carried over to delivery, that is the way people believe they are being treated.
I don't think carried over is quite right. If some people are managing to put off their associates by being condescending - making them feel patronised or belittled in some way - that's not evidence of the word 'incompetent' spilling out of its academic sense in the 4 stage model into its pejorative sense. People with whatever attitude problem it is that would make them treat an associate that way would be doing the same if the 4 stage model had never been invented. The model is not at fault there, and neither are people who subscribe to it.vonhosen said:
None of that would undermine my statement above (that the vast majority would consider that there is room for improvement in their driving).
I doubt that many of them consider it all, and few would consider doing anything about it.ps. A car equivalent of Bikesafe would be a great thing. Similar to the IAM defensive driving course I did.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 23 May 18:04
I thought it had long been established that the majority of drivers, when asked, consider themselves to be "above average". Certainly the majority do not give any conscious thought to the standard of their driving other than that it is "better than the next man". The intellectually honest ones that would consider themselves in need of improvement are a minority, and those that would be prepared to actually do anything about it are a smaller group still.
All IMHO (and experience) of course.
All IMHO (and experience) of course.
Edited by Strangely Brown on Thursday 23 May 18:08
vonhosen said:
I disagree, I believe the vast majority would admit there is room for improvement in their driving. Few would say that their driving is perfect.
Von, you have again avoided answering the actual question by answering a similar, but unrelated, question that was never asked.As you know, when I posted...
"... I think you would have difficulty in asserting that the first three items above do not apply to the vast majority of the 35 million UK licence holders."
Would you have difficulty, or not?
... I was referring to the undermentioned three items in the context of advanced driver training...
1. the person is not aware of the existence or relevance of the skill area.
2. the person is not aware that they have a particular deficiency in the area concerned.
3. the person might deny the relevance or usefulness of the new skill.
In many academic studies with regard to driver attitude it has been found that 80% or more of participants evaluate themselves as being above the average driver. Many would regard this outcome as indicative that most drivers can be regarded as falling into these three descriptive categories.
As an aside, you know full well that you have deliberately and mischievously taken my use of the word "incompetent" completely out of context for reasons of your own personal agenda. Stop it! you're being a very, very naughty boy.
MC Bodge said:
As I think somebody once said,
"You can criticise a man for anything, including his performance in bed, but you must never criticise his driving".
"You can criticise a man for anything, including his performance in bed, but you must never criticise his driving".
Perhaps others have said it too.
(although thinking about it, JYS said those two were the only things you must not criticise a man for)
Edited by otolith on Thursday 23 May 19:28
johnao said:
vonhosen said:
I disagree, I believe the vast majority would admit there is room for improvement in their driving. Few would say that their driving is perfect.
Von, you have again avoided answering the actual question by answering a similar, but unrelated, question that was never asked.As you know, when I posted...
"... I think you would have difficulty in asserting that the first three items above do not apply to the vast majority of the 35 million UK licence holders."
Would you have difficulty, or not?
... I was referring to the undermentioned three items in the context of advanced driver training...
1. the person is not aware of the existence or relevance of the skill area.
1. I contend they are aware that skill sets exist outside their performance envelope.
2. the person is not aware that they have a particular deficiency in the area concerned.
2. I contend they are aware as they are aware there are skill sets outside their performance envelope.
3. the person might deny the relevance or usefulness of the new skill.
3. I contend they don't consider it a priority for them, which isn't indicative that they might not find it ultimately useful, it's just they consider other things of greater importance in their lives & therefore of greater benefit.
In many academic studies with regard to driver attitude it has been found that 80% or more of participants evaluate themselves as being above the average driver. Many would regard this outcome as indicative that most drivers can be regarded as falling into these three descriptive categories.
Considering yourself above average (accurately or not) doesn't equate with viewing there is no developmental potential for you.
As an aside, you know full well that you have deliberately and mischievously taken my use of the word "incompetent" completely out of context for reasons of your own personal agenda. Stop it! you're being a very, very naughty boy.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 23 May 19:26
MC Bodge said:
vonhosen said:
None of that would undermine my statement above (that the vast majority would consider that there is room for improvement in their driving).
I doubt that many of them consider it all, and few would consider doing anything about it.ps. A car equivalent of Bikesafe would be a great thing. Similar to the IAM defensive driving course I did.
BikeSafe is an interesting case study, because its praise and popularity have largely spread by word of mouth.
On paper, BikeSafe shouldn't have worked, because bikers don't normally like being followed by the police! They often don't like "road safety", which doesn't resonate with people who have already accepted the risks involved in motorcycling. Despite all this, BikeSafe has worked. It's popular. It's image is excellent. Even magazines like Fast Bikes and Superbike have got fully behind BikeSafe. All because the police instructors have got it right. People really like how BikeSafe is delivered, tell their mates, and recommend BikeSafe on forums like PH. They pass on tips from BikeSafe to mates who haven't or won't attend the course in person, spreading Roadcraft.
BikeSafe shows what can be done.
On paper, BikeSafe shouldn't have worked, because bikers don't normally like being followed by the police! They often don't like "road safety", which doesn't resonate with people who have already accepted the risks involved in motorcycling. Despite all this, BikeSafe has worked. It's popular. It's image is excellent. Even magazines like Fast Bikes and Superbike have got fully behind BikeSafe. All because the police instructors have got it right. People really like how BikeSafe is delivered, tell their mates, and recommend BikeSafe on forums like PH. They pass on tips from BikeSafe to mates who haven't or won't attend the course in person, spreading Roadcraft.
BikeSafe shows what can be done.
SVS said:
BikeSafe is an interesting case study, because its praise and popularity have largely spread by word of mouth.
On paper, BikeSafe shouldn't have worked, because bikers don't normally like being followed by the police! They often don't like "road safety", which doesn't resonate with people who have already accepted the risks involved in motorcycling. Despite all this, BikeSafe has worked. It's popular. It's image is excellent. Even magazines like Fast Bikes and Superbike have got fully behind BikeSafe. All because the police instructors have got it right. People really like how BikeSafe is delivered, tell their mates, and recommend BikeSafe on forums like PH. They pass on tips from BikeSafe to mates who haven't or won't attend the course in person, spreading Roadcraft.
BikeSafe shows what can be done.
But that suggests the opposite of what johnao is claiming (& is part of the point in the question to MC Bodge). On paper, BikeSafe shouldn't have worked, because bikers don't normally like being followed by the police! They often don't like "road safety", which doesn't resonate with people who have already accepted the risks involved in motorcycling. Despite all this, BikeSafe has worked. It's popular. It's image is excellent. Even magazines like Fast Bikes and Superbike have got fully behind BikeSafe. All because the police instructors have got it right. People really like how BikeSafe is delivered, tell their mates, and recommend BikeSafe on forums like PH. They pass on tips from BikeSafe to mates who haven't or won't attend the course in person, spreading Roadcraft.
BikeSafe shows what can be done.
It suggests it's not a lack of interest, but the delivery problems turning people off.
vonhosen said:
But that suggests the opposite of what johnao is claiming (& is part of the point in the question to MC Bodge).
It suggests it's not a lack of interest, but the delivery problems turning people off.
The biggest difference that I can think of is that motorcyclists (those who actually use their bikes more than twice a year) are often "enthusiasts", very few people actually need a motorbike. Drivers are generally people who use cars for transport. It suggests it's not a lack of interest, but the delivery problems turning people off.
It's the non-enthusiasts who are hard to reach.
A "Car-Safe" course may appeal to some younger drivers though.
MC Bodge said:
vonhosen said:
But that suggests the opposite of what johnao is claiming (& is part of the point in the question to MC Bodge).
It suggests it's not a lack of interest, but the delivery problems turning people off.
The biggest difference that I can think of is that motorcyclists (those who actually use their bikes more than twice a year) are often "enthusiasts", very few people actually need a motorbike. Drivers are generally people who use cars for transport. It suggests it's not a lack of interest, but the delivery problems turning people off.
It's the non-enthusiasts who are hard to reach.
A "Car-Safe" course may appeal to some younger drivers though.
vonhosen said:
But the IAM are finding it hard to attract even the enthusiasts.
I know, hence my suggestion the other day, and tonight, that a positive, "Car-Safe", defensive driving course, with no Advanced/superior/driving gloves-and-slacks connotations, with helpful tips about awareness, but without any dogma about brake-gear separation and the like, might be a good idea. It could be run by the Police, or others.
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