Discussion
Frik said:
Details of the assaults:
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greate...
Most of these women came forward after Hall's arrest. This is why anonymity for the suspect is a problem.
I read just a few of those and I'm shocked that any man could do such things! Regardless of his age he should have got more than 15 months in my opinion.http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greate...
Most of these women came forward after Hall's arrest. This is why anonymity for the suspect is a problem.
king child molester! His age is irrelevant.Pat H said:
goldblum said:
Really? Why couldn't the women come forward before Hall's arrest? It's either a crime or it isn't.
They could have done.But crimes are not always reported. Especially sexual offences, where there is shame, stigma and the significant risk of being dismissed as a liar.
It is a good job that there was publicity, or no one else would have come forward.
Then it would have been Hall's word against that of a middle aged woman regarding something that happened a very long time ago.
And he would have made a persuasive, eloquent and disarming witness. And he would probably have been acquitted.
Before the others came forward I would never have believed he was this sort of chap. I rather liked him.
But thank God for the lack of anonymity and his (very stupid) protestations of innocence.
Which resulted in more victims having the courage to come forward, thereby reducing the likelihood of an acquittal.
And so he finally admitted what he had done. An unequivocal guilty plea in the face of overwhelming evidence.
I have absolutely no doubt that he is as guilty as Crippen.
This case is a resounding endorsement that the law regarding anonymity is absolutely bang on.
What troubles me is the the women who were groped, the women you're alluding to, may have mentioned it to their parents and their parents decided in a perfectly reasonable and logical way that by the norms of the time a dirty old man's hand up skirt or fondle of breast was simply not worth going to the law about. Fast forward 30/40 years to a different society and the combination of media led outrage, compensation and police inquisition towards TV stars of yesteryear post Savile shock has led to sad old men being prosecuted under laws of today for crimes of yesterday for which they may well have been guilty back then but would never in a million years been prosecuted.
What next I wonder, Simon Cowell facing charges of abuse for reducing children to tears on his show?
WeirdNeville said:
goldblum said:
Really? Why couldn't the women come forward before Hall's arrest? It's either a crime or it isn't.
Is it really that hard to work out?You get abused aged 16 by a media persona.
You are shocked and ashamed and you don't think anyone will believe you.
You try and get on with your life.
40 years later, an elderly man is in court.
But you don't get to find out who he is and there's a media black out.
You die at 73 with justice for your crime having never been dealt.
WeirdNeville said:
t was a crime then and it's a crime now. He was tried under old legislation, if it matters to you. Law cannot be applied retrospectively.
.
What sentence would the 40 year old Hall have been given for the various crimes back then? I suspect it would not have been 15 months in nick. He may well have been fined and given a suspended sentence. .
When Marilyn Monroe signed her studio contract she said "Thats the last cock I ever suck" Should we now prosecute the studio heads posthumously? This is a knee jerk reaction from a failed justice system. Managed by a failed political class.
In our society today we litigate at the drop of a hat. Its something we were taught by Thatcher. Back in the day its a wonder Hall wasn't dealt with in the old fashioned way by some girls dad. Its a wonder it did not happen. Nowadays with CCTV not enough people get a smack in the mouth
vodkalolly said:
What sentence would the 40 year old Hall have been given for the various crimes back then? I suspect it would not have been 15 months in nick. He may well have been fined and given a suspended sentence.
Unlikely as he pleaded guilty, and with a guilty plea the available tariff was 12 - 24 months, rising to 60 months if the victim was under 13 at the time.vodkalolly said:
When Marilyn Monroe signed her studio contract she said "Thats the last cock I ever suck" Should we now prosecute the studio heads posthumously? This is a knee jerk reaction from a failed justice system. Managed by a failed political class.
And your point is ? tubbystu said:
vodkalolly said:
What sentence would the 40 year old Hall have been given for the various crimes back then? I suspect it would not have been 15 months in nick. He may well have been fined and given a suspended sentence.
Unlikely as he pleaded guilty, and with a guilty plea the available tariff was 12 - 24 months, rising to 60 months if the victim was under 13 at the time.vodkalolly said:
When Marilyn Monroe signed her studio contract she said "Thats the last cock I ever suck" Should we now prosecute the studio heads posthumously? This is a knee jerk reaction from a failed justice system. Managed by a failed political class.
And your point is ? telecat said:
Personally I am worried by a report that Hall changed his plea as the Police convinced him that they would show a "pattern of Behaviour" that would lead to a Guilty verdict. Now for a person of my generation I would tell them to prove it. I'm not sure that someone of Hall's generation would be as resistant.
Yep as easy for the police as shooting fish in a barrel. telecat said:
tubbystu said:
vodkalolly said:
What sentence would the 40 year old Hall have been given for the various crimes back then? I suspect it would not have been 15 months in nick. He may well have been fined and given a suspended sentence.
Unlikely as he pleaded guilty, and with a guilty plea the available tariff was 12 - 24 months, rising to 60 months if the victim was under 13 at the time.vodkalolly said:
When Marilyn Monroe signed her studio contract she said "Thats the last cock I ever suck" Should we now prosecute the studio heads posthumously? This is a knee jerk reaction from a failed justice system. Managed by a failed political class.
And your point is ? goldblum said:
telecat said:
Personally I am worried by a report that Hall changed his plea as the Police convinced him that they would show a "pattern of Behaviour" that would lead to a Guilty verdict. Now for a person of my generation I would tell them to prove it. I'm not sure that someone of Hall's generation would be as resistant.
Yep as easy for the police as shooting fish in a barrel. telecat said:
goldblum said:
telecat said:
Personally I am worried by a report that Hall changed his plea as the Police convinced him that they would show a "pattern of Behaviour" that would lead to a Guilty verdict. Now for a person of my generation I would tell them to prove it. I'm not sure that someone of Hall's generation would be as resistant.
Yep as easy for the police as shooting fish in a barrel. Faced with that, and his own knowledge of his guilt, then the lesser of two evils for him, I suppose.
telecat said:
goldblum said:
telecat said:
Personally I am worried by a report that Hall changed his plea as the Police convinced him that they would show a "pattern of Behaviour" that would lead to a Guilty verdict. Now for a person of my generation I would tell them to prove it. I'm not sure that someone of Hall's generation would be as resistant.
Yep as easy for the police as shooting fish in a barrel. tubbystu said:
confused: And your point is ?
My point is a simple one. Marilyn made a choice to engage with and perform sex acts for men who could further here career as an actor. That was how it worked then. She was 13 when she started pursuing that road. The whole JS scandal is now being expanded to incorporate lots of ancient celebs who have probably abused their positions of power to exploit young girls. This nothing new. Its not right but it happens. I suspect that its the tip of the iceberg though. Slash has certainly admitted to having sex with lots of under age girls. None of them have complained to date. Will we jail Slash when one of them thinks he might be fair game for some compo? Perhaps I am being too cynical but I cant help thinking that half of these allegations will be embellished to make maximum impact and attract more money.
goldblum said:
telecat said:
goldblum said:
telecat said:
Personally I am worried by a report that Hall changed his plea as the Police convinced him that they would show a "pattern of Behaviour" that would lead to a Guilty verdict. Now for a person of my generation I would tell them to prove it. I'm not sure that someone of Hall's generation would be as resistant.
Yep as easy for the police as shooting fish in a barrel. WeirdNeville said:
telecat said:
Then they discover it is dug up as being guilty to the offence.
It is. You have to admit guilt to be offered a police caution. It's in the wording of the caution and everything. You get handed a written copy to read before you accept it, and you can have legal advice before you do so.telecat said:
"Coaching" witnesses to give similar stories is never allowed to happen is it?
Of course not. No pressure to make a watertight case whatsoever. It's interesting that some victims wait 30 years to complain about a brief grope of their breast and at press interview they state they felt 'violated' for decades. Probably not a word they'd ever use, but everyday language for psychologists.Looks like there were strong enough rumours back in 78 here is a previously unreleased bbc interview with the then Jonny Rotten.Skip to 53 seconds!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjy8oLVOvi4&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjy8oLVOvi4&fea...
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