Exiting the EU - What are the cons?
Discussion
Andy Zarse said:
Good grief no. That would be quite ridiculous. I am of course equating those pre-war defeatists who said we could never win against Germany with your own position on obtaining free trade with Europe; both your conclusions are equally wrong.
I've said it time and again, the EU is an petty annoyance to me nothing more - unlike nazi Germany in the 30s. If we had to re-negotiate trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world then I'd put up with it, but we don't (unless of course they do indeed begin rounding up and imprisoning ethnic minorities and threatening to invade their neighbours). We have a good trading arrangement with Europe and the rest of the world, for which I'm personally willing to put up with the rest of the crap.
chris watton said:
Is this why both the UK and EU are in such a terrific economic state?
Nothing to do with trade. If governments want to spend money they don't have, and pay people to sit on their arses instead of forcing them to work, then it's hardly surprising that the country's economy is in the s
tter. But for those of us who work hard and sell overseas then competitive access to markets is key. My personal bit of the economy is doing ok and I'd like to keep it that way.RYH64E said:
chris watton said:
Is this why both the UK and EU are in such a terrific economic state?
Nothing to do with trade. If governments want to spend money they don't have, and pay people to sit on their arses instead of forcing them to work, then it's hardly surprising that the country's economy is in the stter. But for those of us who work hard and sell overseas then competitive access to markets is key. My personal bit of the economy is doing ok and I'd like to keep it that way.'Comparing the Single Market's costs with its benefits makes for painful reading. In 2003 the Commission published its assessment that EU GDP in 2002 was around €165bn higher than it would have been without the Single Market. Even after allowing for the extra GDP growth since 2002, this means that the benefits are less than a third of the costs.'
The EU and single market IS damaging trade.
Andy Zarse said:
richie99 said:
elster said:
Why would the UK spend much time on trade agreements? No trade agreements would be lost by leaving the EU, the WTO kind of supersedes all. So it would be business as normal for our existing agreements.
Err no. The UK almost no existing trade agreements. They are all between the EU and other jurisdictions - all approx 30 of them, UK outside the EU would have to renegotiate them all - at least if we wanted to trade with them. No trade agreement, no trade.
elster said:
Andy Zarse said:
richie99 said:
elster said:
Why would the UK spend much time on trade agreements? No trade agreements would be lost by leaving the EU, the WTO kind of supersedes all. So it would be business as normal for our existing agreements.
Err no. The UK almost no existing trade agreements. They are all between the EU and other jurisdictions - all approx 30 of them, UK outside the EU would have to renegotiate them all - at least if we wanted to trade with them. No trade agreement, no trade.
s2art said:
Just as a matter of interest a few years BO (before Obama) Senator Gramm was pushing to get the UK into NAFTA. I imagine that if we left the EU that possibility would re-emerge.
The Obama administration is currently in the the progress of negotiating an EU/US free trade agreement, that's the same agreement they've said they wouldn't be interested in negotiating with a post-EU UK (which is somewhat at odds with the oft repeated PH assertion that such deals would be a shoo-in).RYH64E said:
s2art said:
Just as a matter of interest a few years BO (before Obama) Senator Gramm was pushing to get the UK into NAFTA. I imagine that if we left the EU that possibility would re-emerge.
The Obama administration is currently in the the progress of negotiating an EU/US free trade agreement, that's the same agreement they've said they wouldn't be interested in negotiating with a post-EU UK (which is somewhat at odds with the oft repeated PH assertion that such deals would be a shoo-in).RYH64E said:
The worry is that a popular, single issue party like UKIP could gain power
SIngle issue?I count at least five major ones:
1) The Global Warming Fiasco
2) The EU's racist and ruinous immigration policy.
3) The EU running our lives and plundering our banking system, fisheries and farms.
4) Our right to self determination, as granted by UN Charter.
5) The economy, quangos, etc.
As you either a) can't count or b) are blind you are unqualified to comment on this thread.
And many others.
And yes, it must be a huge worry that we'd actually get a competent government who represented us.
RYH64E said:
Globs said:
SIngle issue?
The clue's in the name...I count at least five major ones:
1) The Global Warming Fiasco
2) The EU's racist and ruinous immigration policy.
3) The EU running our lives and plundering our banking system, fisheries and farms.
4) Our right to self determination, as granted by UN Charter.
5) The economy, quangos, etc.
As you either a) can't count or b) are blind you are unqualified to comment on this thread.
And many others.
That's true actually, EU membership ranks third in concerns among UKIP supporters. Immigration ranks first and the economy second for those of you playing at home.
UKIP aren’t a traditional Conservative demographic either. Like conservatives they tend to be older but tend to be working class, financially insecure, low skill and low income.
UKIP aren’t a traditional Conservative demographic either. Like conservatives they tend to be older but tend to be working class, financially insecure, low skill and low income.
Globs said:
Our right to self determination, as granted by UN Charter.
Errm, if you've got a right to self-determination then by definition the UN can't grant you anything!Or are you now arguing that there two levels of tyranny above the UK, first the EU and then the UN? Clearly the UN must be abolished as infringing upon your strange ideals.
Andy Zarse said:
RYH64E said:
Andy Zarse said:
Such negative defeatism.
You'd have been an appeaser in the Thirties.
Surely you're not equating nazi Germany with the EU's petty bureaucracy?You'd have been an appeaser in the Thirties.
Of course, there are millions of poor folk whose nations are locked into the Euro Doomsday machine who would beg to differ with you and me...
Query... How many fta did the uk have to lose or get rid of to appease the EU when we joined?
Just Canada or a whole lot more?
I see the countries of the old uk empire are now doing better trade than the EU organised ftas, how is this correct if EU is supposed to help the countries in the EU to get better ftas with the rest of the world?
Just Canada or a whole lot more?
I see the countries of the old uk empire are now doing better trade than the EU organised ftas, how is this correct if EU is supposed to help the countries in the EU to get better ftas with the rest of the world?
Du1point8 said:
Query... How many fta did the uk have to lose or get rid of to appease the EU when we joined?
Just Canada or a whole lot more?
I see the countries of the old uk empire are now doing better trade than the EU organised ftas, how is this correct if EU is supposed to help the countries in the EU to get better ftas with the rest of the world?
I think (I could be massively wrong here) it's because when an individual country negotiates they can strike the best deal for themselves. When the EU negotiates it has to make so many concessions for individual members that the deal is never as good.Just Canada or a whole lot more?
I see the countries of the old uk empire are now doing better trade than the EU organised ftas, how is this correct if EU is supposed to help the countries in the EU to get better ftas with the rest of the world?
For example the discussions at the moment with the EU and US have already had the French piping up about protecting their film industry.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Globs said:
Our right to self determination, as granted by UN Charter.
Errm, if you've got a right to self-determination then by definition the UN can't grant you anything!People like you are trying to deny us that, by refusing us a referendum on the biggest power shift in the UK since Henry VIII.
Exactly what don't you understand about that?
Globs said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
Globs said:
Our right to self determination, as granted by UN Charter.
Errm, if you've got a right to self-determination then by definition the UN can't grant you anything!People like you are trying to deny us that, by refusing us a referendum on the biggest power shift in the UK since Henry VIII.
Exactly what don't you understand about that?
Du1point8 said:
Query... How many fta did the uk have to lose or get rid of to appease the EU when we joined?
Just Canada or a whole lot more?
I see the countries of the old uk empire are now doing better trade than the EU organised ftas, how is this correct if EU is supposed to help the countries in the EU to get better ftas with the rest of the world?
The question isn't whether to join the EU, for better or worse that was decided long ago, the question is what we do now, from our current starting point as part of the EU.Just Canada or a whole lot more?
I see the countries of the old uk empire are now doing better trade than the EU organised ftas, how is this correct if EU is supposed to help the countries in the EU to get better ftas with the rest of the world?
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