RE: TVR's new owner: PH Meets
RE: TVR's new owner: PH Meets
Author
Discussion

JonRB

79,795 posts

298 months

Monday 17th June 2013
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DonkeyApple said:
But, we can't ignore the expectation set by the brand that each new genre of model was a significant performance step forward as a whole. I don't think anything ever surpassed the big Cerb
I'm more than happy with the performance of my Sagaris. I honestly don't think I would ever need anything more performant for the public road.

However, I'd cordially point out that the Sagaris eclipses the Cerbera in performance, which kind of weakens your statement. smile

RichB

55,743 posts

310 months

Monday 17th June 2013
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TA14 said:
JonRB said:
RichB said:
cramorra said:
yes and those "heavy" cars <clip> were in fact lighter than their size might suggest...
Indeed, my Aston weighs 1,280kg which is light even by comparison to today's smaller cars, let alone a 3.0 twin OHC, 2+2 coupe!

Indeed. Pretty bantamweight by today's standards, although I suspect a little on the porky side by the standards of the day. Same as modern Astons. smile
No, it was quite good for it's day. It's the modern Astons that are overweight and not class leaders in performance. The Merc 190 and the Austin Healey could shave a 100kg off the weight but: the Jensen was about the same weight, e-type over 1300kg, Alvis over 1500kg, Bentley over 1900kg.
Indeed and the XK150 was 1,350kg and the Jaguar Mk1 was heavier. The aluminium body helps and ironically it was lighter than the DB4 that superseded it, which was built using the "all new" Superlegerra" construction hehe

JonRB

79,795 posts

298 months

Monday 17th June 2013
quotequote all
Great to see posts from you again christof after all this time! Thanks for your contributions.

This guy is a proper PHer, folks. And he's an old poster like me.

RichB

55,743 posts

310 months

Monday 17th June 2013
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JonRB said:
This guy is a proper PHer, folks. And he's an old poster like me.
Indeed, Member ID 236...

cramorra

1,687 posts

261 months

Monday 17th June 2013
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Out of interest Christoph - do you still own TVR- Deutschland GMBH?
In case the new owner wanted to export to the fatherland???

christof

966 posts

310 months

Monday 17th June 2013
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JonRB said:
Great to see posts from you again christof after all this time! Thanks for your contributions.

This guy is a proper PHer, folks. And he's an old poster like me.
Thanks Jon thumbup

I remember the good old days when Ted started Pistonheads and TVR sales going strong...

Christof

DonkeyApple

68,161 posts

195 months

Monday 17th June 2013
quotequote all
JonRB said:
DonkeyApple said:
But, we can't ignore the expectation set by the brand that each new genre of model was a significant performance step forward as a whole. I don't think anything ever surpassed the big Cerb
I'm more than happy with the performance of my Sagaris. I honestly don't think I would ever need anything more performant for the public road.

However, I'd cordially point out that the Sagaris eclipses the Cerbera in performance, which kind of weakens your statement. smile
If the Sag does out drag the Cerb then it confirms the statement that each new era of Tiv was faster. However, I thought the Cerb was the spanner in my statement as it out dragged its factory equivalent Sag?

I agree that in reality you really don't need much more than 400bhp but imagine how the new owner will be considered by the media and many fans if his first car is put dragged by a near 20 year old car? I think he is under pressure in that regard.

cerb4.5lee

42,794 posts

206 months

Monday 17th June 2013
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
JonRB said:
DonkeyApple said:
But, we can't ignore the expectation set by the brand that each new genre of model was a significant performance step forward as a whole. I don't think anything ever surpassed the big Cerb
I'm more than happy with the performance of my Sagaris. I honestly don't think I would ever need anything more performant for the public road.

However, I'd cordially point out that the Sagaris eclipses the Cerbera in performance, which kind of weakens your statement. smile
If the Sag does out drag the Cerb then it confirms the statement that each new era of Tiv was faster. However, I thought the Cerb was the spanner in my statement as it out dragged its factory equivalent Sag?

I agree that in reality you really don't need much more than 400bhp but imagine how the new owner will be considered by the media and many fans if his first car is put dragged by a near 20 year old car? I think he is under pressure in that regard.
The Sag is one of my favourite TVR's I love the looks & the power but the vintage Cerb doesn't do to bad for a veteran & it does show it's age nowadays but it still offers a hell of alot of performance for the money & the new owner has a fair bit on his plate but I am confident he will do the business. smile

cramorra

1,687 posts

261 months

Monday 17th June 2013
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christof said:
leaving the customer (and me) totally frustrated about the TVR driving experience.

So reliabilty needs to sort out first with using as much OEM parts as possible, proper prototyping and testing.

I also think that TVR can benefit from cross marketing using components from one of the premier players.

But as stated before, time will tell driving
I agree - time will tell - it must habe been disappointing to have punters lined up, get "development cars" with littlle support from the factory and then the whole TUEV issues-
I think however there is a market for cars like this - here and in Germany- a well priced individualist's car sub Hypercar with performance to match or outrun most mains stream spotrts cars - but at that type of money you want basic reliability and the ability to tailor the car to your needs - by all means switch off traction control if you don't want it, but have it...
the only downside on an Audi idea is that I thinh rwd means sports car (but a lot of potential punters will have fwd experiance mostly and ajust easier to awd), and Audi lost some of its vorsprung durch technik.... the new 2 liter and possible the coming 4 liter V8 from AMG would be machines, though- if one wants to go German - but also the Jaguar/Landrover engines would be worth looking at if it is affordable - I somehow do not so much want a yank engine (although I acknowledge history, tuneability and price....)- i still think a KERS would be great as would be a carbon tub... but that might not work sub 100k...
Cracking, great engines which might be affordable come from honda (2 litre VTEC for basic and 3.6 litre for performance model) might work, too
the future might be bright....

900T-R

20,406 posts

283 months

Tuesday 18th June 2013
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JonRB said:
DonkeyApple said:
But, we can't ignore the expectation set by the brand that each new genre of model was a significant performance step forward as a whole. I don't think anything ever surpassed the big Cerb
I'm more than happy with the performance of my Sagaris. I honestly don't think I would ever need anything more performant for the public road.

However, I'd cordially point out that the Sagaris eclipses the Cerbera in performance, which kind of weakens your statement. smile
Not sure about straight line performance... on paper, yes - but most would say the Cerb 4.5 is the faster car outright.

Thing is, as I mentioned earlier, latter-day TVRs were always close to if not already at the point where more power would spoil the overall experience rather than enhance it (Sag being an exception of sorts), going for significantly more in a road car on road tyres adhering to the front-mid engined, RWD concept would mean putting it on the receiving end an electronic leash most of times - you'd as well have bought an AMG Merc then. wink

Thing is, at some point our cars will simply become too old to be viable as 'everyday' cars, I can rebuild, refurbish, upgrade them but at some point the technocrats will forbid driving it into cities (Paris is planning to forbid the use of cars over 17 years of age starting some time next year, some Dutch councils have been making noises about banning cars over 12 years old from city centres) no matter what I do. Which would mean I end up with having underground parking but not being able to drive my car there legally...

And I really don't feel like resigning & compromising the level of involvement & purity I want from my driving experience...

RichardD

3,608 posts

271 months

Tuesday 18th June 2013
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christof said:
...
I think TVR should do a bespoke Chassis, but use the drivetrain, etc from the TT-RS.

As stated before the low volume manufacturer law doesn't require crash testing and pedestrian protection, so no need to use an existing (and heavy) chassis.

But, hey, time will tell :-)
Serious question, for such a theoretical car, where would the engine sit?

I'd assume that it would be in exactly the same relative position as the "donor car"? So transversely inbetween the front wheels.

On a lighter car this would mean a worse front/rear weight distribution than the original car too. Plus it would remove the purpose of a long bonnet to sit the engine further back too....

OlberJ

14,101 posts

259 months

Tuesday 18th June 2013
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Indeed, a 5 cylinder turbo front transverse mounted with 4WD doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.

Especially for a TVR.

RichardD

3,608 posts

271 months

Tuesday 18th June 2013
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From memory, with remap I think people have got the TTRS to do 0-100mph in 7.2 secs, so it is a very impressive setup, so imho Christof had a good point mentioning it in that respect (ignoring the packaging being just the wrong shape for a TVR type car (or any sports car!).

900T-R

20,406 posts

283 months

Tuesday 18th June 2013
quotequote all
Indeed, an absolute no go as far as I am concerned. Donkervoort doesn't seem to do too badly with the TT-RS engine in the D8 GTO - but the rest they can keep. There is atill a small niche for low volume sports car manufacturers.

However,I can't think of any for a product as compromised as outlined by way of the wholesale adoption of what is basically a FWD, transverse engine drivetrain but with all the compromises in terms of slickness that come with low volume manufacturing in addition. Basically you'd be eaten alive by the big German players...

The Beaver King

6,095 posts

221 months

Tuesday 18th June 2013
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christof said:
Don't take this as an offend, but you are wrong.

There are new EEC laws from 2009 which don't allow the loop hole which was used from the UK and the Netherlands.

Morgan has learned what to do to stay in the market back in 2005 and spend a lot of money to get EEC approval so that they can sell their vehicles in all markets.

Even Caterham has got the low volume manufacturer type approval with massive help from Ford.

And apparently you've misunderstood me, I never was saying that TVR should bold new body parts to the VAG chassis.

I think TVR should do a bespoke Chassis, but use the drivetrain, etc from the TT-RS.

As stated before the low volume manufacturer law doesn't require crash testing and pedestrian protection, so no need to use an existing (and heavy) chassis.

But, hey, time will tell :-)
I'm not really up to date with my European Automotive Regulations so I won't even try to discuss that, but as someone who obviously knows his stuff about TVRs, can you honestly see cars being sold under the TVR banner with 5 pot Audi engines?

I have absolutely no doubt that they are very capable engines, but it isn't really a 'TVR' engine. If they are going down that route, I'd much rather see them using the BMW V8s or Mercedes V8s. At least they are still engines that keep to the TVR ethos and should pass the EEC laws.

In my eyes, TVRs are all about NA large capacity V8s/Straight 6s. I think TVR would lose that British muscle car image if it used anything less than 3000cc engines and started using turbos as standard.

I will say again though, who the hell knows what the new owner will do...?

RichardD

3,608 posts

271 months

Tuesday 18th June 2013
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DonkeyApple

68,161 posts

195 months

Tuesday 18th June 2013
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pocty

1,125 posts

305 months

Tuesday 18th June 2013
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Great to read your posts Christof after all these years. Yes the early Pistonheads days and the Yahoo groups did a lot for TVR. What ever happened to your old black Cerbera, that was the best Cerbera ever built, even TVR was proud of it.

Pocty
theratpac

The Beaver King

6,095 posts

221 months

Tuesday 18th June 2013
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RichardD

3,608 posts

271 months

Tuesday 18th June 2013
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