EDL leader Tommy Robinson vs Tell MAMA's Fiyaz Mughal
Discussion
WeirdNeville said:
hat's the problem. They can't articulate themselves well enough to have a coherent message. So why bother debating with them?'.
Because, rightly or wrongly, they actually do speak for some people. And the irony is that the size of that group is growing PRECISELY because people like you refuse utterly to debate the few valid points that they may have, but which they struggle to articulate. The EDL is gathering support not because of Muslims, instead it is gathering support because people like you keep trying to label anyone who has concerns as facists, Nazis, racists and such like. When nobody else is able to speak out, it's not surprising that the group that will is the one that gets the support.... Despite its awfulness. The EDL are not a political party, they are an anti-Islam protest movement. Nothing more. As previously pointed out, their many-monikered leader is a convicted football thug who has presumably had some media training.
The only reason that a far-right group which was previously dying on its arse have received so much media is because some of their members jumped on the anti-Islam bandwagon following Woolwich. They don't deserve the attention and if anyone thinks that Robinson's performance on Sunday makes the EDL worthy of consideration then they are deluded. The EDL are not speaking for the British public, they're speaking for a bunch of racist thugs.
I would never advocate stopping them from having their right to free speech but that doesn't stop me thinking that they are
s.
The only reason that a far-right group which was previously dying on its arse have received so much media is because some of their members jumped on the anti-Islam bandwagon following Woolwich. They don't deserve the attention and if anyone thinks that Robinson's performance on Sunday makes the EDL worthy of consideration then they are deluded. The EDL are not speaking for the British public, they're speaking for a bunch of racist thugs.
I would never advocate stopping them from having their right to free speech but that doesn't stop me thinking that they are
s.andymadmak said:
Lol. And I mean genuine lol! You honestly think I support him and those like him?
I use this fellow as a classic example of EVERYTHING thats wrong with the race debate and why both sides are wrong.
You fail to see my point at all. The fact is, that as thick and as inarticulate, brain washed and thuggish as this man is, he does, by whatever quirk of fate actually talk about something that many many working class people in this country are concerned about. He speaks a language that many will relate to, and bizarrely even understand. That you chose to ridicule him is typical of your side of the debate.....and the problem with that is that on those occasions where there is a kernel of truth in what he is saying ( Muslim rape gangs) it's actually you that looks like a tt in the end for deliberately chosing to missunderstand him rather than engage with what he is saying and deal with it.
Do you deny that many working class people will hear what he is saying, and in light of recent events be saying "see he was right all along" ! ? Do you not think that by his being right on this point some people will then tend to lend greater credance to other things he might be saying- things that could be wholly wrong? Do you not think that by ridiculing him and chosing to ignore the plight of the victims you do, in the eyes of many working class people excuse YOURSELF from the debate?
What are we trying to achieve here? Personally I thought it was greater understanding, peace, better community relations, safer streets, the marginalsiation of extremists of all types. You won't achieve any of those things by deliberately chosing to missunderstand people for the purpose of cheap comedy mocking and derision. All you do is rob the poor and inarticuate of their voice, their place at the debating table.
Me a part of the problem? Look in the mirror matey.
But for EDL to waffle on about Muslim rape gang etc just looks weak, because if they were that concerned with rape, why focus on just Muslims? If they cared that much why not focus on the wider issue regardless of race or religon, for example peadophile priests, domestic rape, date rape etc?I use this fellow as a classic example of EVERYTHING thats wrong with the race debate and why both sides are wrong.
You fail to see my point at all. The fact is, that as thick and as inarticulate, brain washed and thuggish as this man is, he does, by whatever quirk of fate actually talk about something that many many working class people in this country are concerned about. He speaks a language that many will relate to, and bizarrely even understand. That you chose to ridicule him is typical of your side of the debate.....and the problem with that is that on those occasions where there is a kernel of truth in what he is saying ( Muslim rape gangs) it's actually you that looks like a t
t in the end for deliberately chosing to missunderstand him rather than engage with what he is saying and deal with it. Do you deny that many working class people will hear what he is saying, and in light of recent events be saying "see he was right all along" ! ? Do you not think that by his being right on this point some people will then tend to lend greater credance to other things he might be saying- things that could be wholly wrong? Do you not think that by ridiculing him and chosing to ignore the plight of the victims you do, in the eyes of many working class people excuse YOURSELF from the debate?
What are we trying to achieve here? Personally I thought it was greater understanding, peace, better community relations, safer streets, the marginalsiation of extremists of all types. You won't achieve any of those things by deliberately chosing to missunderstand people for the purpose of cheap comedy mocking and derision. All you do is rob the poor and inarticuate of their voice, their place at the debating table.
Me a part of the problem? Look in the mirror matey.
And other issues that they use to try and discredit the Muslim faith holds no water because they ultimately boil down to generic issues at a high level (murder, abuse, sexism etc) that affect all races and religions. They simply add the faith specific slant to try and make it appear as if they are problems exclusive to Muslims. When did we last see him campaign again peado preists from the Catholic Church?
Yes there is an issue with Muslim extremists in this country, but as a movement for them to get any credibility on a wider scale they need to focus on the issues in a less racist way.
I note from secret footage / chanting clips I have seen they always seem to have a problem with Asians, yet many of the terrorists we have seen over the last 10 years or so have been from places like Somalia and Chechnya.
EDL think they are clever to do press interviews etc, and their front man is at pains to point out that they are not racist, although they admit they have racist members, however they know full well their avid and active supporters are at the extreme end of right wing. They know they can rely on these supporters on the ground to do the hardcore messaging and campaigning without the front man himself having to do so, to avoid being branded racist.
andymadmak said:
Lol. And I mean genuine lol! You honestly think I support him and those like him?
I use this fellow as a classic example of EVERYTHING thats wrong with the race debate and why both sides are wrong.
You fail to see my point at all. The fact is, that as thick and as inarticulate, brain washed and thuggish as this man is, he does, by whatever quirk of fate actually talk about something that many many working class people in this country are concerned about. He speaks a language that many will relate to, and bizarrely even understand. That you chose to ridicule him is typical of your side of the debate.....and the problem with that is that on those occasions where there is a kernel of truth in what he is saying ( Muslim rape gangs) it's actually you that looks like a tt in the end for deliberately chosing to missunderstand him rather than engage with what he is saying and deal with it.
All I see is a misinformed thicko whom I frankly have no time to 'try' to understand nor do I think that this misinformed idiot is representative of the 'fears' many working class people have about other sections of the community.In my experience they are more peeved off with governments for 'worrying' too much about political correctness rather Muslims , Jews or any other minority groups.Muslims did NOT ask for a bullying excessive PC directive nor did they want Sharia laws imposed in this country, and the fact that some piss-takers extremists are advocating Sharia law is hardly representative of the majority Muslims.The fact that you fail to see this single point never mind other underlying sub-points makes you look as silly as Mr Muslamic Ray Gun.I use this fellow as a classic example of EVERYTHING thats wrong with the race debate and why both sides are wrong.
You fail to see my point at all. The fact is, that as thick and as inarticulate, brain washed and thuggish as this man is, he does, by whatever quirk of fate actually talk about something that many many working class people in this country are concerned about. He speaks a language that many will relate to, and bizarrely even understand. That you chose to ridicule him is typical of your side of the debate.....and the problem with that is that on those occasions where there is a kernel of truth in what he is saying ( Muslim rape gangs) it's actually you that looks like a t
t in the end for deliberately chosing to missunderstand him rather than engage with what he is saying and deal with it.andymadmak said:
Do you deny that many working class people will hear what he is saying, and in light of recent events be saying "see he was right all along" ! ?
I doubt working class people could be as thick as him never mind empathise with half sentences like Iraqi Laws in London.You need intelligence and charisma to capture the hearts and minds of working class people, not thugs who can hardly string up two sentences together.I frankly find your views quite insulting to working class people!andymadmak said:
Do you not think that by his being right on this point some people will then tend to lend greater credance to other things he might be saying- things that could be wholly wrong? Do you not think that by ridiculing him and chosing to ignore the plight of the victims you do, in the eyes of many working class people excuse YOURSELF from the debate?
I refer you to the reply I gave earlier WRT working class people.As far as ridiculing Mr Muslamic Ray Gun>>> If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck...andymadmak said:
What are we trying to achieve here? Personally I thought it was greater understanding, peace, better community relations, safer streets, the marginalsiation of extremists of all types.
Now you're making sense, I am all for sensible debating.andymadmak said:
You won't achieve any of those things by deliberately chosing to missunderstand people for the purpose of cheap comedy mocking and derision. All you do is rob the poor and inarticuate of their voice, their place at the debating table.
There is nothing to misunderstand in a misinformed uneducated idiot whose nonesensical dogma is hardly representative unless you are condescendingly lumping all working class people as a bunch of Muslamic-Ray-Guns! Please tell me you are not! andymadmak said:
Me a part of the problem? Look in the mirror matey.
I have a mirror! and I suspect you do too if you take time to remove your head from your ...! Meant in the nicest possible way, honest! 
Silver said:
The EDL are not a political party, they are an anti-Islam protest movement. Nothing more. As previously pointed out, their many-monikered leader is a convicted football thug who has presumably had some media training.
The only reason that a far-right group which was previously dying on its arse have received so much media is because some of their members jumped on the anti-Islam bandwagon following Woolwich. They don't deserve the attention and if anyone thinks that Robinson's performance on Sunday makes the EDL worthy of consideration then they are deluded. The EDL are not speaking for the British public, they're speaking for a bunch of racist thugs.
I would never advocate stopping them from having their right to free speech but that doesn't stop me thinking that they ares.
But its not actually about the EDL. Or at least it shouldnt be. Lets say your description of the EDL is accurate ( i am not saying it is not, just that I dont yet know enough about the group to agree 100% ) is it not all the more tragic that they can gain support in these times? Why is it that no mainstream political party is able to engage in the race and mlticlturalism debate these days? Why is the field left clear for the EDL? THAT was the point I was making about Mr Muslamic Ray Gun and such like. In the halls of the blind, the one eyed man is king..... The only reason that a far-right group which was previously dying on its arse have received so much media is because some of their members jumped on the anti-Islam bandwagon following Woolwich. They don't deserve the attention and if anyone thinks that Robinson's performance on Sunday makes the EDL worthy of consideration then they are deluded. The EDL are not speaking for the British public, they're speaking for a bunch of racist thugs.
I would never advocate stopping them from having their right to free speech but that doesn't stop me thinking that they are
s.Regardless of the EDL, the actual point in question is 'do we have a problem with Islamic extremism in this country?'
Do we, don't we? The failure of reasonable minded people to accept a problem and deal with it offers the opportunity to less reasonable people to persecute whole groups for the misdeeds of a few within their community.
Do we, don't we? The failure of reasonable minded people to accept a problem and deal with it offers the opportunity to less reasonable people to persecute whole groups for the misdeeds of a few within their community.
allnighter said:
lots of stuff..
For the record, I am a working class bloke. Grew up on a council estate. Have worked manually as well as with my head skills. Your view that the kind of stuff spoken by Mr MRG would not find any traction amongst the working class is misguided imho. I think at times like this we really have a duty to listen hard. To everyone. We have a responsibility to do our best to try to understand what even the most inarticulate amongst us are trying to say. Dismissing, ridiculing and belittling are not going to get us the result society needs. I don't expect you to agree, so lets leave it there shall we? Am ooot Edited by andymadmak on Monday 17th June 21:22
Edited cos typing on my ipad is crap!
Edited by andymadmak on Monday 17th June 21:23
anonymous said:
[redacted]
We do acknowledge it though, our own government has agencies like GCHQ, MI5 and SIS actively fighting it and spending hundreds of millions doing so. Our government and reasonable people have never denied there is a problem with islamic extremism, most Muslims also openly acknowledge this.This difference is movements like EDL constantly blur the lines between extremists and normal practicing Muslims, they claim its the religion that is the problem, not the people.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I do NOT think anyone is denying that there is a problem with religious extremism in this country.It exists and anyone whose religious belief, in this case Islam, should NOT be held accountable for the actions of others who proclaim adherence to the same religion.Muslims are not like members of a social club where they meet every Sunday! This is particularly addressed to those who keep pointing the finger at the 'Muslim community' in the UK.It's bandied by both Muslims and non Muslims.There is no such a thing! Everyone goes about their lives minding their own business, and practicing whatever religion they choose.
I am no more responsible for what Fred West did than Mr Abdul, businessman 2 doors down from me, for what the rape gang did up the line because of religious association.
andymadmak said:
allnighter said:
lots of stuff..
For the record, I am a working class bloke. Grew up on a council estate. Have worked manually as well as with my head skills. Your view that the kind of stuff spoken by Mr MRG would not find any traction amongst the working class is misguided imho. I think at times like this we really have a duty to listen hard. To everyone. We have a responsibility to do our best to try to understand what even the most inarticulate amongst us are trying to say. Dismissing, ridiculing and belittling are not going to get us the result society needs. I don't expect you to agree, so lets leave it there shall we? Am ooot Edited by andymadmak on Monday 17th June 21:22
Edited cos typing on my ipad is crap!
Edited by andymadmak on Monday 17th June 21:23
But seriously, in principle I agree with most of what you just said, but I have no more energy to waste on Mr MRG than your average red neck in Texas! I am willing to listen to and debate genuine concerns about mass migration, culture clashes etc... and how to promote our Britishness to rise above all this just the way the Yanks do it, they love their country more than anything else in the world regardless of race, creed or anything else.They're all immigrants after all.
allnighter said:
Worst look at me I have an Ipad post ever! But seriously, in principle I agree with most of what you just said, but I have no more energy to waste on Mr MRG than your average red neck in Texas! I am willing to listen to and debate genuine concerns about mass migration, culture clashes etc... and how to promote our Britishness to rise above all this just the way the Yanks do it, they love their country more than anything else in the world regardless of race, creed or anything else.They're all immigrants after all.
You are right the Americans love their country, but when it comes to caring about foreigners who follow a.different way of life then recent history will paint a less than favourable picture. But seriously, in principle I agree with most of what you just said, but I have no more energy to waste on Mr MRG than your average red neck in Texas! I am willing to listen to and debate genuine concerns about mass migration, culture clashes etc... and how to promote our Britishness to rise above all this just the way the Yanks do it, they love their country more than anything else in the world regardless of race, creed or anything else.They're all immigrants after all.
obob said:
Terminator X said:
Isn't he and the EDL simply representing the Working Class view or chavs as we like call them today? Afaik the Labour Party used to do that albeit now batter them along with the other political parties, no wonder EDL membership is "gathering pace".
TX.
Not really, they mostly seem to be hooligans looking for a fight once football season is over hence more EDL activity between May and August. The UAF and other weirdo hippies are definite die hard Labour supporters.TX.
The EDL guys that I know and know of live in Barnsley and Doncaster and are ex miners. They are old Union stalwarts. I think a couple are still members as well.
As for the UAF they are just there to bait the EDL, as they want EDL banned which is a little ironic.
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