Student Activism in the USA

Author
Discussion

biggbn

23,649 posts

221 months

Thursday 9th May
quotequote all
andy_s said:
biggbn said:
As we are throwing quotations around, and I love a quotation, Jacob Bronowski suggested 'It is important that students bring a certain ragamuffin, barefoot irreverence to their studies; they are not here to worship what is known, but to question it.', and it's one I refer to on a daily basis. The biggest word in the world, perhaps the most significant, has three letters W H Y. Whilst I understand some see 'the youth' challenging establishment views and trying out 'different' looks, ideas, perspectives, as uncomfortable or pointless, I'd argue we should all do that rather than settle for a pair of old comfy slippers and a standard issue cardigan... And yes, I get some sound like Brando's Johnny in Laszlo Benedkt's 'The Wild One' who when asked by a querulous and somewhat awestruck acolyte 'What are you rebelling against' merely snarls 'Whaddya got?', a brilliant line that surely sums up the potion any thinker must take if they want to move forward?

I'd argue with Dostoevsky, and why not, none of our cultural icons should remain unchallenged. Everyone, regardless of their intellect should think of themselves as an original character. They may be manifesting their originality by following a crowd, whatever, but we are all original characters, and should feel it a duty to practice original and open minded thinking and analysis. Sadly, many prefer the regulation issue stereotype foisted up in them by society and gratefully relieved because of its comfort and familiarity. Religion may be the opium of the masses, but that comfort one has by allowing oneself to be massaged into the right shape to fit the hole others have prepared for you is also a heady opiate, and one that many are addicted to.

Edited by biggbn on Saturday 4th May 12:10
I think there's a few things here perhaps - first of all I agree, it's natural and beneficial to question the status quo, everyone should have a bit of Brando in them - I've largely built my career around doing exactly that, but now ask yourself, how many in the radical/activist domain question their status quo? Doesn't seem too Brando to me, looks like they are as conformist [intra-group] as the frat boy next door! ['All punks look the same']

Secondly - and this extends philosophically too far perhaps - but it's like postmodern critique in general, it is a critique, it isn't a 'new way' nor does it stand alone without reference to the modern or the pre-modern. It's useful only to improve when you have a grasp of the underpinnings and why and how they operate - Chesterton's fence if you will. It's deconstructive by definition. Applied here it is easy to be channeled into thinking the west is a terrible place/thing etc, without having that broader perspective. There are a lot of things that are fked up, to put it technically, but unfking them may mean you fk up even worse than before with something else. This I think takes consideration, something that is not at all evident from these types. What is their solution? They don't have one, so WHY are adults listening to them...?

On comfort I would say perhaps it's a question of how the individual fits into the collective, the collective can't operate without some rules and discipline, some conformity and purpose and a LOT of 'load bearing fictions'. That tie, WHY?! - it's scrap of cloth that sits around your neck serving no purpose you fool, but in the collective it's a signal that you're professional or attending a sober meeting or some other convention we have going on - this is just part of culture. Religion, as you bring it up, is similar [imo] in that it operates as a collective hallucination/'load bearing fiction' that keeps everyone from doing bad things, looking after your neighbour is good, not sleeping with them if you're married is better etc. etc.. They may be 'constructs', but there is purpose behind them. Eschew god when you understand why god is there and you can perhaps improve things and not be riddled with Catholic guilt or have an Islamic license for misogyny whilst maintaining those beneficial parts - I think this is the true direction/advantage of postmodernist thinking rather than the 'everything is fake so tear it down' one that it has sort of morphed into.

Map all of that onto this small issue here and you could see how promoting the rights of the Palestinians may be beneficial, to put some small brake on the whole bloody mess or to check the wilder excesses, but that's not what is going on, imo because the wider context, realities and theory of mind isn't there. It's as I've said above, much more to do with inculcation in a certain direction, a group think or memetic desire, so that the mere act of protest is an end in and of itself. This is Dostoevsky's point I think rather than that of a pro-conformist one - the values of the lady came from wearing the blue spectacles and calling themselves a Nihilist, and not that their values made them a Nihilist.




Edited by andy_s on Saturday 4th May 18:03
Thanks for this thoughtful reply. With regards a few points, 'non conformists' have seldom been unique, which may have been Dostoevsky's point, but they never were. There is a herd mentality when you are not part of THE herd...birds of a feather and all that, the ultimate irony being that many signal their non conformist attitudes by conforming to a smaller group. I was more thinking about the non conforming mind, which doesn't need to outwardly signal as it sends its signal internally. Question everything. Descartes, and I'm paraphrasing, suggested that he realised he had to 'raze all of his knowledge to the ground' if he was to learn anything new, think in a different way, which does tie into your suggestion that many object to things without even understanding how, or why they work...like the truculent 4 year old who doesn't like beans because they are orange, nothing of substance, of weight underpins their objection.

My point, however, was that for many, and for many young people in particular the default position is 'why?', and they are young enough that yes, they may not be aware that what they are questioning has merit or might exist for a reason, even if it is outmoded...but they are aware, sometimes painfully so, that 'established' thinking and ideologies are uncomfortable, don't fit their rapidly expanding minds. This knee jerk inquisitiveness, based on nothing but a feeling that 'I must question/protest' must be nurtured, regardless of whether it comes before or after the 'fact'. So, I'd still argue with Dostoevsky's point, his intellectual sneering, yes the blue haired lady might have no idea what she is protesting against, and yes, she may look very similar to the green haired lady next to her...but they are questioning, even from an intellectually bereft position, and they are individuals, unique, as every human being is born. Their desire to signify this difference by a momentary similarly might well be a phase they go through and they might move on to adopt much more learned positions from which to hurl their visible and vocal doubt. They have the tools, and the freedom to protest in a way that we, the worker drones, don't. Not unless we are willing to lose the 'stuff' we have accrued. I'm all for it man, protest, whether ill advised, ill informed or pointless is a catalyst for further enquiry and should be a rite of passage for all.

Edited by biggbn on Thursday 9th May 13:33

skyrover

12,682 posts

205 months

Thursday 9th May
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
Fast and Spurious said:
Derek Smith said:
One of the main differences between the 70s and now is the behaviour of students. There is, seemingly, a lack of reaction to government policies. Back in the day, there would have been lots of students protesting about sending refugees to a country that, when there was a way of applying for political asylum, people could claim asylum from. Students should question.

I feel that what's happening in Palestine is appalling. We have largely passive demonstrations against it in various cities, particularly London, and the government response has been to ignore this swell of opinion. I feel like demonstrating. It's an affront to decency. The casual dismissal of deaths of innocents is enough to make anyone angry. But it took the deaths on non-Palestinians to generate a mild rebuke. A sit-in by students in the country that funds the attacks on innocents, and continues to do so, is a mild response. Good on 'em. Americans should be ashamed of what their country is doing to the middle-east. I'm just glad someone has noticed.
Innocents? Ah, bless!
Do you assume that Hamas was 34,000 strong? 'Cause that's roughly how many Palestinians have been killed. There have been 224 aid workers and lots of journalists. I'm not sure what your definition of innocent is, but I assume it includes the 13,000+ children. Ah, bless is a rather pathetic response to all these deaths.

(Figures are about a month old I believe. They have gone up of course.)
There's a lot more militants than 34,000 in Gaza