Modern CH boilers - annual replacement?
Discussion
My house is 30 years old this year.
We have lived here for 26 of them. It was unoccupied for the first year after completion.
The original boiler (old style semi-combi before that phrase became common) just about survived for 13 years but not without some serious expenses along the way. The replacement (new fangled at the time condensing unit) lasted 9 years (with major work along the way) before a heat exchanger gave way and flooded everywhere. Its replacement, I direct update to the second one for a quick and easy (yep, uh huh) 'swap' took about 2 years to get 'right', had a number of part swaps under warranty, a coupld of major and expensive parts changed out of warranty about 2 years ago and now is leaking water again. Ironically it stopped working wiht a thermistor fault last Tuesday evening and an engineer replaced that (a very expensive little component given the price of the call out) and took the opportunity to change the burner cover plate seal (presumably a design issue) at the same time.
Noting some rust and mentioning the previous problems I asked him how it all looked. "Fine" he said. 24 hours later on a Friday night (why is it always at the start of a weekend?) the thing fails again this time with water leaking from the burner unit even when it is running.
I suspect a large repair quote. I would rather change the unit for a different make.
However I suspect that all of the modern units offer much the same expensive fragility Am I right?
Should I just budget to change the thing every 2 or 3 years.
And how is this 'green' engineering being green when it costs so much in repairs and, with half the life of older units or even less than that, implies that manufacturing materials and energy consumotion is likely greater than it used to be.
Is anyone else having similar problems?
Does anyone have a solid recommendation for a proven product that won't give up trying as soon as it is asked to do what it has been designed to do?
Grant
We have lived here for 26 of them. It was unoccupied for the first year after completion.
The original boiler (old style semi-combi before that phrase became common) just about survived for 13 years but not without some serious expenses along the way. The replacement (new fangled at the time condensing unit) lasted 9 years (with major work along the way) before a heat exchanger gave way and flooded everywhere. Its replacement, I direct update to the second one for a quick and easy (yep, uh huh) 'swap' took about 2 years to get 'right', had a number of part swaps under warranty, a coupld of major and expensive parts changed out of warranty about 2 years ago and now is leaking water again. Ironically it stopped working wiht a thermistor fault last Tuesday evening and an engineer replaced that (a very expensive little component given the price of the call out) and took the opportunity to change the burner cover plate seal (presumably a design issue) at the same time.
Noting some rust and mentioning the previous problems I asked him how it all looked. "Fine" he said. 24 hours later on a Friday night (why is it always at the start of a weekend?) the thing fails again this time with water leaking from the burner unit even when it is running.
I suspect a large repair quote. I would rather change the unit for a different make.
However I suspect that all of the modern units offer much the same expensive fragility Am I right?
Should I just budget to change the thing every 2 or 3 years.
And how is this 'green' engineering being green when it costs so much in repairs and, with half the life of older units or even less than that, implies that manufacturing materials and energy consumotion is likely greater than it used to be.
Is anyone else having similar problems?
Does anyone have a solid recommendation for a proven product that won't give up trying as soon as it is asked to do what it has been designed to do?
Grant
Crikey, obviously a topic that many feel a close to. I hadn't expected so many responses so soon.
I will confess that this one has not been serviced for a couple of years but before that it was seeing an engineer more than annual most of the time. Given that the engineer on Thursday said that it looked fine inside, since he had the burner cover plate off to replace a seal 'with a better one' (read: "The originals were poor") and I know from his previous visits (and a conversation he had on the phone with a colleagus whilst he was here) that he is one of their more senior engineers, I find that 'slightly' disappointing. Especially for the cost of the call out charge given that the replacement thermistor must cost very little and involves removing and refitting 2 panels (about 6 screws) and takes 2 minutes. The burner seal took another 5 mins. Heck of an hourly rate.
Whilst I had skipped the service last year since it had had so much work previously, the engieer's comments seemed to indicate that to have done so had not been detrimental. In any case it always seemed that anyone doiing anything to the thing caused a problem to arise within a few weeks. Like this time. My thinking is that getting sucked into a series of expensive replacements is not sensible. When it shows signs of failing I will plan to replace it rather than throw good maney after bad again. This summer was looking like the time for that to be considered seriously. Just didn't quite get that far it seems.
Now, I appreciate that any manufacturer can have problems but a friend who is also an heating systems installer heartily recommends the Worcester-Bosch brand and I note that they offer a 2 year guarantee and an option to extend that to 10 years with an annual service contract. Presumably they have done their sums and figured that will be profitable, which is a good sign but not a guarantee of solid reliable service over the period.
The original boiler fitted when the house was built was a pre-Bosch ownership Worcester which was always a problem though to be fair mostly because in the early days it would get through a new thermocouple for the pilot light every few months (and the pilot would blow out regualrly anyway) because people kept fitting the thermocouple in the wrong place. Once I worked that out and fitted it correctly that particular problem disappeared. Some of those units were working in other houses around here until very recently. Maybe some still are. I know that people who were very happy with them were concerned about having to change as parts became scarce.
The current unit (and its predecessor) are a well known mainstream make that also became foreign owned around the time the current unit was installed. (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on the naming and shaming front until they come back, supposedly tomorrow.)
The predecessor had to be replaced in a hurry when one of the heat exchangers started to leak very badly. A relatively sudden and catastrophic failure. The 'easy' fix with least re-plumbing and re-fluing effort was a direct replacement with the later model. It's fine when it works which is most of the time, but the number of serious and expensive failures on a relatively new unit was disconcerting. Hence the thought of buying cheap and changing often.
Of course the flaw with that plan may be that direct swaps become impossible as the regulation change (almost daily?) and are imposed by enforcing the need to have a qualified installer to do the work (no harm in that per se) but then forcing the installer to follow the current guidelines even if the unit could be swapped into an installation based on, say, last year's guidelines. All in the name of Health and Safety of course.
Sooo.. Could one consider a cheap, throw away after 2 or 3 years if it fails, unit and keep a spare available for about the same cost as buying a 'brand' new unit and running a service contract on it for 7 to 10 years? Exclude any potential savings on Gas usage. I don't believe the figures or the way they are calculated allows for any useful comparison.
Thanks for all the advice so far. I'm tempted to seek a fast swap to W-B but may have a secondary problem arise sionce they seem to need a 22mm gas supply pipe and the current supply, which runs from the attached garage and splits somewhere to feed the kitchen and upstairs airing cupboard separately (probably in the cavity wall I would guess based on the way these properties were built) seems to be only 15mm.
This could be an interesting couple of months. Eon want to change the Gas meter in a couple of weeks and we are scheduling a new kitchen installation for the first week in April, complete with some electrical work that means significant changes to deal with this year's version of the regulations.
Such joy. I may have been sectioned by the time that work is completed.
The only positive thing I can see is that with interset rates on the floor and inflation likely to get rampant there seems to be little point in saving the money ... pretty sad really.
Grant
I will confess that this one has not been serviced for a couple of years but before that it was seeing an engineer more than annual most of the time. Given that the engineer on Thursday said that it looked fine inside, since he had the burner cover plate off to replace a seal 'with a better one' (read: "The originals were poor") and I know from his previous visits (and a conversation he had on the phone with a colleagus whilst he was here) that he is one of their more senior engineers, I find that 'slightly' disappointing. Especially for the cost of the call out charge given that the replacement thermistor must cost very little and involves removing and refitting 2 panels (about 6 screws) and takes 2 minutes. The burner seal took another 5 mins. Heck of an hourly rate.
Whilst I had skipped the service last year since it had had so much work previously, the engieer's comments seemed to indicate that to have done so had not been detrimental. In any case it always seemed that anyone doiing anything to the thing caused a problem to arise within a few weeks. Like this time. My thinking is that getting sucked into a series of expensive replacements is not sensible. When it shows signs of failing I will plan to replace it rather than throw good maney after bad again. This summer was looking like the time for that to be considered seriously. Just didn't quite get that far it seems.
Now, I appreciate that any manufacturer can have problems but a friend who is also an heating systems installer heartily recommends the Worcester-Bosch brand and I note that they offer a 2 year guarantee and an option to extend that to 10 years with an annual service contract. Presumably they have done their sums and figured that will be profitable, which is a good sign but not a guarantee of solid reliable service over the period.
The original boiler fitted when the house was built was a pre-Bosch ownership Worcester which was always a problem though to be fair mostly because in the early days it would get through a new thermocouple for the pilot light every few months (and the pilot would blow out regualrly anyway) because people kept fitting the thermocouple in the wrong place. Once I worked that out and fitted it correctly that particular problem disappeared. Some of those units were working in other houses around here until very recently. Maybe some still are. I know that people who were very happy with them were concerned about having to change as parts became scarce.
The current unit (and its predecessor) are a well known mainstream make that also became foreign owned around the time the current unit was installed. (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on the naming and shaming front until they come back, supposedly tomorrow.)
The predecessor had to be replaced in a hurry when one of the heat exchangers started to leak very badly. A relatively sudden and catastrophic failure. The 'easy' fix with least re-plumbing and re-fluing effort was a direct replacement with the later model. It's fine when it works which is most of the time, but the number of serious and expensive failures on a relatively new unit was disconcerting. Hence the thought of buying cheap and changing often.
Of course the flaw with that plan may be that direct swaps become impossible as the regulation change (almost daily?) and are imposed by enforcing the need to have a qualified installer to do the work (no harm in that per se) but then forcing the installer to follow the current guidelines even if the unit could be swapped into an installation based on, say, last year's guidelines. All in the name of Health and Safety of course.
Sooo.. Could one consider a cheap, throw away after 2 or 3 years if it fails, unit and keep a spare available for about the same cost as buying a 'brand' new unit and running a service contract on it for 7 to 10 years? Exclude any potential savings on Gas usage. I don't believe the figures or the way they are calculated allows for any useful comparison.
Thanks for all the advice so far. I'm tempted to seek a fast swap to W-B but may have a secondary problem arise sionce they seem to need a 22mm gas supply pipe and the current supply, which runs from the attached garage and splits somewhere to feed the kitchen and upstairs airing cupboard separately (probably in the cavity wall I would guess based on the way these properties were built) seems to be only 15mm.
This could be an interesting couple of months. Eon want to change the Gas meter in a couple of weeks and we are scheduling a new kitchen installation for the first week in April, complete with some electrical work that means significant changes to deal with this year's version of the regulations.
Such joy. I may have been sectioned by the time that work is completed.
The only positive thing I can see is that with interset rates on the floor and inflation likely to get rampant there seems to be little point in saving the money ... pretty sad really.
Grant
tamore said:
10 Pence Short said:
You should be able to get a 5 year warranty on decent Worcester Bosch boilers, too.
we just got this. boiler is a massive improvement on the one which died in the middle of the cold snap.The 'extended' offers suggest they will ensure coverage of the product (parts and labour) for 10 years, maybe more, but wuith costs and terms and conditions attached. Nice to have but no more than a cost spreader unless the thing is so hopeless it would have cost a fortune to fix. Now the cost saving may be a net cost to the manufacturer or it may be a source of revenue if the get the numbers and life expectancy right. However if they are right on the calculations for the scheme there is self evident financial win and it does not overcome the problem of the breakdown on a Friday night of a cold weekend in March. Just means you get service you have already paid for OR at least it costs someone else money, in theory. Give me a 2 hour response emergency call out 27/7 for a similar cost of contract and that would be more interesting. Better than 1 to 3 days anyway. But really only useful if the thing is unreliable anyway.
I would prefer reliability no matter what one throws at it.
Which brings me to TimJMS' mother's Victorian edifice. Wonderful. They knew how to make something last back them. (If you need a huge Mahogany style fireplace and cast iron inset to go with the burner give me a shout, I have one that needs a home.)
Going back further he Romans knew a thing or two about underfloor heating. I wonder how ther running costs would compare with today?
I think the advice provided to Simpo's neighbour tells most of the nmodern end of the story.
Roman stuff could last a could of millenia, Victorian stuff a couple of hundred years (presumably). 50s and 60s designs might last 30 or 40years.
Modern stuff apparently cuts 'emissions' but not by enough to justify ever shorter life spans and probably not enough to cover the cost of manufacture, distribution, installation and service. My mother's house had a Potterton combi of early 80's vintage as I recall and whilst it eventually, after years of nursing by Potterton, seemed to work well enough it only worked for a single person in a small 3 bed detached. Once you knew how to make it give you what you wanted (there was an art to showering) it was just about adequate a fairly reliable. She made a mistake doing away with the hot water tank though. That said it was till working when I sold the house and I doubt nost of the more recent designs would be at the same age.
Thus my question. Buy quality and expect reliability or buy cheap and expect to change it frequently on a pre-planned 'prior to breakdown' or warranty expiry basis?
Much the same as a decision about buying a new car I guess if it's one you might consider keeping for a few years.
Once again, thanks for all the replies people. Most interesting and enlightening.
My tame advisor is suggesting Worcester or Baxi, but with a preference for Worcester based on systems he has installed. They are not full proof from problems but seem to offer him a lower failure rate than the others. (Although of course for an individual installation that proves nothing whatsoever.) The feedback here seems, broadly, to confirm his observations.
That's comforting.
Grant
Hmm.
Well today's chap changed the condensate drain system in its entirety (another redesign from the original it seems) and things appear to be working OK.
I'm still thinking it would be a good idea to change the system before next winter bit for now it might be OK.
Apparently re-calls attract negative feedback from management so presumably Thursday's engineer will not be popular. An extra 10 mins would have resolved the problem - just another spec. upgrade as per the burner seal - and there was surely pre-paid money in the job to allow that. More than there is now gioven the call back costs alone.
Thankfully there is no additional cost to me - other than about an extra 60 hours with no heating or hot water and watereve the cost differential between electric warmth from a few fanheaters and gas CH would have been.
So far so good. All I have to do now is try to get the house up to temp and the air out of the system after the pump change.
Well today's chap changed the condensate drain system in its entirety (another redesign from the original it seems) and things appear to be working OK.
I'm still thinking it would be a good idea to change the system before next winter bit for now it might be OK.
Apparently re-calls attract negative feedback from management so presumably Thursday's engineer will not be popular. An extra 10 mins would have resolved the problem - just another spec. upgrade as per the burner seal - and there was surely pre-paid money in the job to allow that. More than there is now gioven the call back costs alone.
Thankfully there is no additional cost to me - other than about an extra 60 hours with no heating or hot water and watereve the cost differential between electric warmth from a few fanheaters and gas CH would have been.
So far so good. All I have to do now is try to get the house up to temp and the air out of the system after the pump change.
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