Discussion
Leon R said:
Do you feel that approaching a woman on a bus (for example) and striking up a conversation is harassment Stewie?
I think most people appreciate it's not really a black and white question and it might be or it might not be depending on the situation.Without looking up dictionary definitions even if individual attempts to strike up a conversation aren't I can understand how if it happens every day of your life by random men when all you're trying to do is go to school/college/uni/work/gym/shopping/night out you might consider you're being harassed.
So I think it depends.
Reminds me a little bit of this.
Staring on public transport: 'His eyes were glued on me'
I mean simply looking at a woman isn't harassment is it?
Some stats using TfL as an example.
Tackling sexual harassment on the network
86% of 18-24-year-olds said they had experienced sexual harassment in public spaces.
A woman that I knew in 2013, only as an acquaintance, reported me to the
Police for stalking her because I looked at her
LinkedIn page.
That was all,
I had a letter from the Police saying there was not going to be any action.
In the meantime s made posts on a number of forums saying how bad I was and that the matter was now in the hands of the Police, it wasn't.
She found out where I lived and sent a letter to my wife saying how bad I had been..
She sent a glitter bomb to me and to friend of mine who also knew of her.
This same woman followed me onto this forum, I changed my username.
Some women are just nuts.
Police for stalking her because I looked at her
LinkedIn page.
That was all,
I had a letter from the Police saying there was not going to be any action.
In the meantime s made posts on a number of forums saying how bad I was and that the matter was now in the hands of the Police, it wasn't.
She found out where I lived and sent a letter to my wife saying how bad I had been..
She sent a glitter bomb to me and to friend of mine who also knew of her.
This same woman followed me onto this forum, I changed my username.
Some women are just nuts.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said:Leon R said:
Do you feel that approaching a woman on a bus (for example) and striking up a conversation is harassment Stewie?
I think most people appreciate it's not really a black and white question and it might be or it might not be depending on the situation.Without looking up dictionary definitions even if individual attempts to strike up a conversation aren't I can understand how if it happens every day of your life by random men when all you're trying to do is go to school/college/uni/work/gym/shopping/night out you might consider you're being harassed.
So I think it depends.
Exactly what I said which is the situation.
It's that old thing of I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see it and I expect a lot of women do.
If you think there's a text book of every situation when a conversation might or might not be considered harassment or unwanted good luck with that.
It's that old thing of I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see it and I expect a lot of women do.
If you think there's a text book of every situation when a conversation might or might not be considered harassment or unwanted good luck with that.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Exactly what I said which is the situation.
It's that old thing of I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see it and I expect a lot of women do.
If you think there's a text book of every situation when a conversation might or might not be considered harassment or unwanted good luck with that.
I don't think you can claim that tbh.It's that old thing of I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see it and I expect a lot of women do.
If you think there's a text book of every situation when a conversation might or might not be considered harassment or unwanted good luck with that.
All you can claim is you know what you think it is when you see it.
Leon R said:
I don't think you can claim that tbh.
All you can claim is you know what you think it is when you see it.
And that's exactly how it is in a lot of cases.All you can claim is you know what you think it is when you see it.
The men who make a habit of low-level harassing and intimidating women in public spaces don't usually do it in a blatant way. But most women will have had the experience of the man who chooses to sit next to them on a bus with plenty of seats and isn't deterred by the fact that they're reading a book or listening to music. "What are you listening to?" "Why do you like that band?" "Where are you going?" "Why are you going there?" "Your jacket looks nice" etc. etc. etc.
Nothing that isn't, on the face of it (or when recounted later) polite conversation but all delivered with a persistence and insistence that is unwelcome. And that carries the latent possibility or threat of quickly turning to misogynistic abuse if there is too much pushback "Stuck-up b
h! I only said your jacket looks nice! No wonder you're riding the bus alone! I wouldn't even [insert creepy sexual comment here] you!" The ones who don't strike up similar 'friendly conversation' with men. Or women who aren't alone and strangely much younger than them. Same with women who work in retail/service roles, many of whom will be familiar with the way chat can swiftly go from polite to intrusive and then on to abusive.
And the thing is, women can't really tell if, when a man sits next to them on a bus and says "Nice weather today, isn't it?" whether he's going to be one of the majority who is making polite and normal conversation or one who is starting a strange little power-play to make them feel uncomfortable.
2xChevrons said:
Leon R said:
I don't think you can claim that tbh.
All you can claim is you know what you think it is when you see it.
And that's exactly how it is in a lot of cases.All you can claim is you know what you think it is when you see it.
The men who make a habit of low-level harassing and intimidating women in public spaces don't usually do it in a blatant way. But most women will have had the experience of the man who chooses to sit next to them on a bus with plenty of seats and isn't deterred by the fact that they're reading a book or listening to music. "What are you listening to?" "Why do you like that band?" "Where are you going?" "Why are you going there?" "Your jacket looks nice" etc. etc. etc.
Nothing that isn't, on the face of it (or when recounted later) polite conversation but all delivered with a persistence and insistence that is unwelcome. And that carries the latent possibility or threat of quickly turning to misogynistic abuse if there is too much pushback "Stuck-up b
h! I only said your jacket looks nice! No wonder you're riding the bus alone! I wouldn't even [insert creepy sexual comment here] you!" The ones who don't strike up similar 'friendly conversation' with men. Or women who aren't alone and strangely much younger than them. Same with women who work in retail/service roles, many of whom will be familiar with the way chat can swiftly go from polite to intrusive and then on to abusive.
And the thing is, women can't really tell if, when a man sits next to them on a bus and says "Nice weather today, isn't it?" whether he's going to be one of the majority who is making polite and normal conversation or one who is starting a strange little power-play to make them feel uncomfortable.
2xChevrons said:
And that's exactly how it is in a lot of cases.
The men who make a habit of low-level harassing and intimidating women in public spaces don't usually do it in a blatant way. But most women will have had the experience of the man who chooses to sit next to them on a bus with plenty of seats and isn't deterred by the fact that they're reading a book or listening to music. "What are you listening to?" "Why do you like that band?" "Where are you going?" "Why are you going there?" "Your jacket looks nice" etc. etc. etc.
Nothing that isn't, on the face of it (or when recounted later) polite conversation but all delivered with a persistence and insistence that is unwelcome. And that carries the latent possibility or threat of quickly turning to misogynistic abuse if there is too much pushback "Stuck-up bh! I only said your jacket looks nice! No wonder you're riding the bus alone! I wouldn't even [insert creepy sexual comment here] you!" The ones who don't strike up similar 'friendly conversation' with men. Or women who aren't alone and strangely much younger than them.
Same with women who work in retail/service roles, many of whom will be familiar with the way chat can swiftly go from polite to intrusive and then on to abusive.
And the thing is, women can't really tell if, when a man sits next to them on a bus and says "Nice weather today, isn't it?" whether he's going to be one of the majority who is making polite and normal conversation or one who is starting a strange little power-play to make them feel uncomfortable.
I think, on the whole, it would be better if everybody got together and agreed that the social convention of men chatting up women has become a massive pain in the arse and a social minefield, and that going forwards women should do all of the approaching to see if blokes are interested in them.The men who make a habit of low-level harassing and intimidating women in public spaces don't usually do it in a blatant way. But most women will have had the experience of the man who chooses to sit next to them on a bus with plenty of seats and isn't deterred by the fact that they're reading a book or listening to music. "What are you listening to?" "Why do you like that band?" "Where are you going?" "Why are you going there?" "Your jacket looks nice" etc. etc. etc.
Nothing that isn't, on the face of it (or when recounted later) polite conversation but all delivered with a persistence and insistence that is unwelcome. And that carries the latent possibility or threat of quickly turning to misogynistic abuse if there is too much pushback "Stuck-up b
h! I only said your jacket looks nice! No wonder you're riding the bus alone! I wouldn't even [insert creepy sexual comment here] you!" The ones who don't strike up similar 'friendly conversation' with men. Or women who aren't alone and strangely much younger than them. Same with women who work in retail/service roles, many of whom will be familiar with the way chat can swiftly go from polite to intrusive and then on to abusive.
And the thing is, women can't really tell if, when a man sits next to them on a bus and says "Nice weather today, isn't it?" whether he's going to be one of the majority who is making polite and normal conversation or one who is starting a strange little power-play to make them feel uncomfortable.
otolith said:
I think, on the whole, it would be better if everybody got together and agreed that the social convention of men chatting up women has become a massive pain in the arse and a social minefield, and that going forwards women should do all of the approaching to see if blokes are interested in them.
You have my vote.Interestingly I put this topic into Google and read the first article which happened to be from the Washington Post. It referenced violence statistics in the US which showed that men experience more violence from men than women do. Not by a huge margin but it wasn't what I was expecting after hearing about these discussions.
White-Noise said:
You have my vote.
Interestingly I put this topic into Google and read the first article which happened to be from the Washington Post. It referenced violence statistics in the US which showed that men experience more violence from men than women do. Not by a huge margin but it wasn't what I was expecting after hearing about these discussions.
That sounds odd to me?Interestingly I put this topic into Google and read the first article which happened to be from the Washington Post. It referenced violence statistics in the US which showed that men experience more violence from men than women do. Not by a huge margin but it wasn't what I was expecting after hearing about these discussions.
I'm sure I've heard multiple times that men are overwhelmingly the victims of murder and other violent crime.
otolith said:
2xChevrons said:
And that's exactly how it is in a lot of cases.
The men who make a habit of low-level harassing and intimidating women in public spaces don't usually do it in a blatant way. But most women will have had the experience of the man who chooses to sit next to them on a bus with plenty of seats and isn't deterred by the fact that they're reading a book or listening to music. "What are you listening to?" "Why do you like that band?" "Where are you going?" "Why are you going there?" "Your jacket looks nice" etc. etc. etc.
Nothing that isn't, on the face of it (or when recounted later) polite conversation but all delivered with a persistence and insistence that is unwelcome. And that carries the latent possibility or threat of quickly turning to misogynistic abuse if there is too much pushback "Stuck-up bh! I only said your jacket looks nice! No wonder you're riding the bus alone! I wouldn't even [insert creepy sexual comment here] you!" The ones who don't strike up similar 'friendly conversation' with men. Or women who aren't alone and strangely much younger than them.
Same with women who work in retail/service roles, many of whom will be familiar with the way chat can swiftly go from polite to intrusive and then on to abusive.
And the thing is, women can't really tell if, when a man sits next to them on a bus and says "Nice weather today, isn't it?" whether he's going to be one of the majority who is making polite and normal conversation or one who is starting a strange little power-play to make them feel uncomfortable.
I think, on the whole, it would be better if everybody got together and agreed that the social convention of men chatting up women has become a massive pain in the arse and a social minefield, and that going forwards women should do all of the approaching to see if blokes are interested in them.The men who make a habit of low-level harassing and intimidating women in public spaces don't usually do it in a blatant way. But most women will have had the experience of the man who chooses to sit next to them on a bus with plenty of seats and isn't deterred by the fact that they're reading a book or listening to music. "What are you listening to?" "Why do you like that band?" "Where are you going?" "Why are you going there?" "Your jacket looks nice" etc. etc. etc.
Nothing that isn't, on the face of it (or when recounted later) polite conversation but all delivered with a persistence and insistence that is unwelcome. And that carries the latent possibility or threat of quickly turning to misogynistic abuse if there is too much pushback "Stuck-up b
h! I only said your jacket looks nice! No wonder you're riding the bus alone! I wouldn't even [insert creepy sexual comment here] you!" The ones who don't strike up similar 'friendly conversation' with men. Or women who aren't alone and strangely much younger than them. Same with women who work in retail/service roles, many of whom will be familiar with the way chat can swiftly go from polite to intrusive and then on to abusive.
And the thing is, women can't really tell if, when a man sits next to them on a bus and says "Nice weather today, isn't it?" whether he's going to be one of the majority who is making polite and normal conversation or one who is starting a strange little power-play to make them feel uncomfortable.
What's even weirder is that I have a secret weapon that lets me walk up to random strangers - women, men, young or old - and just start talking to them without any of them ever questioning it.
Why does the simple fact of having a dog make it perfectly acceptable for me to start a conversation with a young woman - if she has a dog with her too - in a way that would be considered totally out of order if I didn't?
Dagnir said:
White-Noise said:
You have my vote.
Interestingly I put this topic into Google and read the first article which happened to be from the Washington Post. It referenced violence statistics in the US which showed that men experience more violence from men than women do. Not by a huge margin but it wasn't what I was expecting after hearing about these discussions.
That sounds odd to me?Interestingly I put this topic into Google and read the first article which happened to be from the Washington Post. It referenced violence statistics in the US which showed that men experience more violence from men than women do. Not by a huge margin but it wasn't what I was expecting after hearing about these discussions.
I'm sure I've heard multiple times that men are overwhelmingly the victims of murder and other violent crime.
https://bjs.ojp.gov/document/cv22.pdf
Kermit power said:
I do feel for my teen sons these days. When I was there age it was considered perfectly normal - assuming you had the guts - to go and chat up a girl in a pub or wherever. If they weren't interested, they let you know and you walked away with no harm done to anything but your ego. The last time I did it was 26 years ago, and we're happily heading towards our silver wedding anniversary in a couple of years. Can young men even take the risk these days?
What's even weirder is that I have a secret weapon that lets me walk up to random strangers - women, men, young or old - and just start talking to them without any of them ever questioning it.
Why does the simple fact of having a dog make it perfectly acceptable for me to start a conversation with a young woman - if she has a dog with her too - in a way that would be considered totally out of order if I didn't?
It makes you seem safe. If a man has a wedding ring or is with another woman then it gives off a sense of you must be OK someone has vetted you. I haven't checked domestic abuse stats regarding that can of worms.What's even weirder is that I have a secret weapon that lets me walk up to random strangers - women, men, young or old - and just start talking to them without any of them ever questioning it.
Why does the simple fact of having a dog make it perfectly acceptable for me to start a conversation with a young woman - if she has a dog with her too - in a way that would be considered totally out of order if I didn't?
White-Noise said:
I think I was thinking of murder perhaps.From wiki and other places:
According to the data given by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, worldwide, 79% of homicide victims are men, and in 193 of the 202 listed countries or regions, men were more likely to be killed than women.
Maybe the other types level it up...although it does just feel like men get involved in fights more.
Guess that's the issue with feelings!
Chainsaw Rebuild said:
My friend told me about this yesterday! Anyone who chooses bear has no grasp of the choice, and is being idiotic.
And as pointed out anyone who takes this at 100% face value and not think about what is behind it is idiotic too. Same as those who believe it shows women hate all men too. asfault said:
2xChevrons said:
Leon R said:
I don't think you can claim that tbh.
All you can claim is you know what you think it is when you see it.
And that's exactly how it is in a lot of cases.All you can claim is you know what you think it is when you see it.
The men who make a habit of low-level harassing and intimidating women in public spaces don't usually do it in a blatant way. But most women will have had the experience of the man who chooses to sit next to them on a bus with plenty of seats and isn't deterred by the fact that they're reading a book or listening to music. "What are you listening to?" "Why do you like that band?" "Where are you going?" "Why are you going there?" "Your jacket looks nice" etc. etc. etc.
Nothing that isn't, on the face of it (or when recounted later) polite conversation but all delivered with a persistence and insistence that is unwelcome. And that carries the latent possibility or threat of quickly turning to misogynistic abuse if there is too much pushback "Stuck-up b
h! I only said your jacket looks nice! No wonder you're riding the bus alone! I wouldn't even [insert creepy sexual comment here] you!" The ones who don't strike up similar 'friendly conversation' with men. Or women who aren't alone and strangely much younger than them. Same with women who work in retail/service roles, many of whom will be familiar with the way chat can swiftly go from polite to intrusive and then on to abusive.
And the thing is, women can't really tell if, when a man sits next to them on a bus and says "Nice weather today, isn't it?" whether he's going to be one of the majority who is making polite and normal conversation or one who is starting a strange little power-play to make them feel uncomfortable.
Dagnir said:
I think I was thinking of murder perhaps.
From wiki and other places:
According to the data given by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, worldwide, 79% of homicide victims are men, and in 193 of the 202 listed countries or regions, men were more likely to be killed than women.
Maybe the other types level it up...although it does just feel like men get involved in fights more.
Guess that's the issue with feelings!
Those stats show that violence not including murder is roughly evenly distributed between the sexes, however if you look further through it, then almost 50% of that violent crime is "domestic violence" and reported domestic violence is overwhelmingly carried out by men on women.From wiki and other places:
According to the data given by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, worldwide, 79% of homicide victims are men, and in 193 of the 202 listed countries or regions, men were more likely to be killed than women.
Maybe the other types level it up...although it does just feel like men get involved in fights more.
Guess that's the issue with feelings!
If you exclude the domestic violence (i.e only look at violence by "strangers") then the only way the numbers can add up is if that other violence is perpetrated against men.
Thus the conclusion is that, when walking down the street among people you don't know, men are at significantly higher risk of violence.
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