Discussion
v8250 said:
One team in the US has developed a domestic sized generation kit where the hydrogen is produced via solar dished collector [the energy source], produced in their microwave sized separator and stored in a similar spec'd vessel to an LPG tank. I for one can not wait until this equipment is readily available as all my cars will be converted.
That doesn't change the fact that producing Hydrogen is energy intensive. All it means is that they are sourcing there energy froma renewable source!v8250 said:
Lastly, any alternative power source produced by electricity will never be efficient...when will people realise that, even here in the little UK, power transmission losses are 70%+ by time electricity reaches our homes and point of usage. I trust all those buying EVs take this on board...work out the real cost of production per kWh and emissions; you'll be shocked. Then, think about the majority of other nations with considerably larger transmission distances!
Close, try 7% losses for the UK National grid. (actually, losses are end voltage dependant, and vary from as little as ~4% for major electrical users (steel works etc) to ~11% for 240v domestic customers.I assume you actually haven't done what you suggest we do, and work out the emissions per km of a UK grid source EV!
v8250 said:
This is incorrect and a very common misconception. Hydrogen is only theoretically energy intensive when using traditional derived fossil fuel power sources. As already shown in this thread there's a global business in hydrogen energy generation; this will only continue to expand and the sooner we are all able to tap into hydrogen the better.
One team in the US has developed a domestic sized generation kit where the hydrogen is produced via solar dished collector [the energy source], produced in their microwave sized separator and stored in a similar spec'd vessel to an LPG tank. I for one can not wait until this equipment is readily available as all my cars will be converted.
Lastly, any alternative power source produced by electricity will never be efficient...when will people realise that, even here in the little UK, power transmission losses are 70%+ by time electricity reaches our homes and point of usage. I trust all those buying EVs take this on board...work out the real cost of production per kWh and emissions; you'll be shocked. Then, think about the majority of other nations with considerably larger transmission distances!
I'm not going to take the piss or try and belittle you as I think its important we all understand energy a little more than we do at the moment. I first got interested in hydrogen back in 1999 and bought shares in Ballard Power systems who make hydrogen fuel cells. Bought at $108 given to charity at $5. Back then they were working with mercedes trying to commericalise fuel cells for transportation. I think looking at their current product range they gave up. So did I.One team in the US has developed a domestic sized generation kit where the hydrogen is produced via solar dished collector [the energy source], produced in their microwave sized separator and stored in a similar spec'd vessel to an LPG tank. I for one can not wait until this equipment is readily available as all my cars will be converted.
Lastly, any alternative power source produced by electricity will never be efficient...when will people realise that, even here in the little UK, power transmission losses are 70%+ by time electricity reaches our homes and point of usage. I trust all those buying EVs take this on board...work out the real cost of production per kWh and emissions; you'll be shocked. Then, think about the majority of other nations with considerably larger transmission distances!
What you are missing as do a lot of people suggesting a hydrogen future is the fundamental energy conversion issues. If you have generated electricity from any source, coal, gas, nuclear, hydro or solar, you have 1 unit of elecrricity.
If you decide to elecotrolyse water to make hydrogen which needs compressing and storing to run in a fuel cell to make electricity to run an electric motor . By the time it gets back to electricity you'll have lost 75% of the original input. So starting with 4kwh youll have 1kwh to power your EV motor.
If instead you charge a battery youll lose about 10%. So starting with 1.1kwh of electric you'll end up with 1kWh to power your EV. Or use that 4kwh from your solar and youll have 3.6kwh for your EV.
Its that conversion issue which means theres no future for hydrogen until someone invents a new way to make it without using electricity and compressing it. As it doesnt exist yet we are stuck with batteries, which as tesla has shown can be cost competitive with petrol.
JonnyVTEC said:
Losses 70%.... Hahahaha.
When will people realise posting stuff like that discredits the rest of their posts?
What happened the LPG tank once the hydrogen boils?
To be fair to v8250 hes probably picked that figure from some nob end fossil sponsored blogger who's trying to poo poo EVs. if you take the mine to wheel efficiency of an EV its probably down about 30% considering the coal fired powerstation is only about 40% efficient, you than take 10% grid loss off the 40%, which gives 36% (not 30%) and lose another 10% in battery charging you end up with 33% mine to wheel efficieny. When will people realise posting stuff like that discredits the rest of their posts?
What happened the LPG tank once the hydrogen boils?
Buts thats for the number of kWh starting with a lump of coal. If you start with solar electric, then its a no brainer to charge a battery instead if going the electrolysis route.
Theres a lot of blogs doing this. They all miraculously forget to do the same with ICE, which if you do the well to wheel efficinecy comes in about 25-30% worse than a worse case EV powered only by coal. If you swap the coal for gas powered CCGTs or wind/wave/solar the EV comes out smelling of roses
I know this becuase I've spent years reading up on it, and work in the industry from time to time. But I would expect Jo public to read what the Daily Mail says and go "but where does the electric for your EV come from, coal powerstation, ner ner ner ner ner". The mail makes money from selling rumour, scandal and BS that winds people up, not from factually describing the electricity generation and distribution networks.
The other point which people conveniently forget when talking about EV's is that they have the ability to (at least partially) negate their own inertia. What i mean is that unlike a conventional car, an EV can change the amount of KE stored its mass without incurring total loss.
In an ICEV, any change of speed "wastes" energy. This is because it has no way of capturing the energy stored by its mass when at speed. All that energy is lost when the vehicle decelerates!
An EV, using regenerative braking, can re-capture up to about 75% of it's KE when driven sensibly. In the real world, where we have to stop for traffic lights, junctions, multiple times during a trip, that starts to add up.
So even if the EV had the same "well to wheel" efficiency as an ICEV, it's energy consumption will be lower!
In an ICEV, any change of speed "wastes" energy. This is because it has no way of capturing the energy stored by its mass when at speed. All that energy is lost when the vehicle decelerates!
An EV, using regenerative braking, can re-capture up to about 75% of it's KE when driven sensibly. In the real world, where we have to stop for traffic lights, junctions, multiple times during a trip, that starts to add up.
So even if the EV had the same "well to wheel" efficiency as an ICEV, it's energy consumption will be lower!
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