EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
Tindersticks said:
Olivera said:
Indeed, the selling point (or obsession) of cost savings (whether fuel or servicing) is quite baffling given: a) People are not selecting expensive vehicles with running costs as a priority criteria, b) The savings often don't take into account high depreciation, and c) If there are any current cost savings it's via very contrived (some would say unfair) government policy.
Is it. Going from a car that costs £100 a tank to one that costs a fiver to charge is a saving anyone can appreciate and money that can be spent elsewhere. Tindersticks said:
Fastdruid said:
It's only a saving if you don't then spend £95 extra 'per tank' on "buying" the vehicle.
No really? Thanks for pointing out the blindingly obvious. IME a lot of people they don't think it through at all. They seem similarly confused when I explain that it's irrelevant that one of my cars does less than 10mpg because it doesn't do more than 1,000 miles a year. They just focus on the 10mpg and cost of petrol per litre.
Everyone's different, for some EV is a better option, for some it isn't.
Unreal said:
It doesn't appear obvious to the people that focus on the cost of charging versus that of buying fuel.
IME a lot of people they don't think it through at all. They seem similarly confused when I explain that it's irrelevant that one of my cars does less than 10mpg because it doesn't do more than 1,000 miles a year. They just focus on the 10mpg and cost of petrol per litre.
Everyone's different, for some EV is a better option, for some it isn't.
Quite possible that you spend as much on that 1000 miles as they do on their 5000, though. There's no point trying to justify the costs of a hobby car to someone who doesn't get why you want it in the first place.IME a lot of people they don't think it through at all. They seem similarly confused when I explain that it's irrelevant that one of my cars does less than 10mpg because it doesn't do more than 1,000 miles a year. They just focus on the 10mpg and cost of petrol per litre.
Everyone's different, for some EV is a better option, for some it isn't.
otolith said:
Unreal said:
It doesn't appear obvious to the people that focus on the cost of charging versus that of buying fuel.
IME a lot of people they don't think it through at all. They seem similarly confused when I explain that it's irrelevant that one of my cars does less than 10mpg because it doesn't do more than 1,000 miles a year. They just focus on the 10mpg and cost of petrol per litre.
Everyone's different, for some EV is a better option, for some it isn't.
Quite possible that you spend as much on that 1000 miles as they do on their 5000, though. There's no point trying to justify the costs of a hobby car to someone who doesn't get why you want it in the first place.IME a lot of people they don't think it through at all. They seem similarly confused when I explain that it's irrelevant that one of my cars does less than 10mpg because it doesn't do more than 1,000 miles a year. They just focus on the 10mpg and cost of petrol per litre.
Everyone's different, for some EV is a better option, for some it isn't.
It isn't just hobby cars. That's why plenty of people will run a sub 20mpg car as a daily. They don't care that they could run a Tesla and save £5000 a year in fuel. Money isn't important to everyone equally. It's not even about being well off. Sometimes it's just about priorities and preferences. Someone might prefer to spend their money on their cars rather than their property for example.
Sheepshanks said:
Unreal said:
Everyone's different, for some EV is a better option, for some it isn't.
I don't agree "everyone" is different - you could group everyone into a few categories.It does baffle me that people keep posting up their own personal use-cases for or against EVs.
Better?
The only baffling thing is why so many people can't accept my point.
I don't have the slightest problem with people making a choice based on whatever criteria they like. I do have a problem with people telling me my choice is wrong based on their criteria for making that choice.
John87 said:
Maybe some look at the overall costs as well. I could have spent £250 on a PCP, £50 on insurance, £250 on fuel, £50 on tyres/ maintenance to drive a 5 year old car worth less than £15k. Alternatively, I chose to spend a similar amount on leasing a fully insured and maintained EV, including about £20 on "fuel" and get to commute in a brand new and significantly better car.
The lower running costs mean that I can easily justify running something a bit nicer than I otherwise would.
All costs other than electricity are factored into the monthlies too whereas I've previously had to stump up on for expensive DPF and injector issues on diesels.
It really isn't though is it. PCP is never the cheap option with the exception of salary sacrifice. You will not save money. The lower running costs mean that I can easily justify running something a bit nicer than I otherwise would.
All costs other than electricity are factored into the monthlies too whereas I've previously had to stump up on for expensive DPF and injector issues on diesels.
You PCP a brand new car for £250 a month or you unsecure loan on a 5 year old car that is worth £15k. That unsecure loan would cost £250 a month and at the end of the term you have an asset you can sell on. If you play your cards right you end up with a car worth 10K which is your capital. The EV is not yours because you rented it and gave it back.
Fuel with a diesel over a 3 year period doing the average 7k miles a year is a little over 3 grand for 3 years so compared to your rented EV anology you have 7000 capital to put into whatever you want in the end. Even if you had to spend £2000 on non wear and tear items you would still be 5k up minus about 1k on interest for the loan.
That is also based on the assumption you can basically charge for free.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Monday 13th May 14:34
Sheepshanks said:
I don't agree "everyone" is different - you could group everyone into a few categories.
It does baffle me that people keep posting up their own personal use-cases for or against EVs.
Some of them are quite extreme as well!It does baffle me that people keep posting up their own personal use-cases for or against EVs.
I agree with you, most people (should) fit into a small number of categories. EVs would appear to be the perfect solution for those who can charge at home and don't do any continuous journeys over 200 or so miles, but still manage to rack up a relatively high annual mileage on other journeys.
Take away the ability to charge at home and add in a lot more long continuous journeys and ICE would be preferable at the moment, certainly as an only car.
Unreal said:
It isn't just hobby cars. That's why plenty of people will run a sub 20mpg car as a daily. They don't care that they could run a Tesla and save £5000 a year in fuel. Money isn't important to everyone equally. It's not even about being well off. Sometimes it's just about priorities and preferences. Someone might prefer to spend their money on their cars rather than their property for example.
There are, but I wonder how many of those run their car because it's an ICE (rather than, say, because it's a massive 4x4, or because it accelerates quickly). My OH's car gets abysmal fuel economy, long term average sub-20mpg. From a 160bhp 1.8 litre four. It's supercharged, it's automatic, it's dragging a CLK convertible around, and her journeys are mostly short and urban, but still, terrible. She wants an electric one next time, but it's not time to change yet, and she puts up with the fuel economy because it only does about 4000 miles a year.kingston12 said:
Some of them are quite extreme as well!
I agree with you, most people (should) fit into a small number of categories. EVs would appear to be the perfect solution for those who can charge at home and don't do any continuous journeys over 200 or so miles, but still manage to rack up a relatively high annual mileage on other journeys.
Take away the ability to charge at home and add in a lot more long continuous journeys and ICE would be preferable at the moment, certainly as an only car.
Absolutely. One either has a usage scenario where EV is better or where ICE is better. And it really doesn't take much thinking power to arrive at the answer. I agree with you, most people (should) fit into a small number of categories. EVs would appear to be the perfect solution for those who can charge at home and don't do any continuous journeys over 200 or so miles, but still manage to rack up a relatively high annual mileage on other journeys.
Take away the ability to charge at home and add in a lot more long continuous journeys and ICE would be preferable at the moment, certainly as an only car.
What's confusing is some for whom ICE in 2024 is clearly better appear confused that some mystical overlord is ordering them to buy an EV and go and die on a bleak Albanian mountain road. Meanwhile, on the other side of the river are some other loons who devoutly believe that by using electricity to propel them to Swindon they are somehow intellectually and morally superior while being blissfully ignorant of the reality that having to go to places like Swindon every day should, in any rational mind, dispel any such beliefs.
Meanwhile, the vast majority just use the tool that bear fits the job they have to do or what makes them happiest etc. These people are what one might term 'normal'.
survivalist said:
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV rsnge drops like a stone.
That is a bit of an exaggeration; mine is a bit worse, but not massively.Fully loaded with a roof box and travelling at motorway speeds in the summer is around 200 miles, in the winter around 170 miles.
Once a year, we travel from Surrey up to Scotland, it adds around 20 mins to the journey by taking the EV (433 miles).
If we stop overnight halfway (young kids), it doesn't add any time as we stop at a hotel with chargers.
BricktopST205 said:
John87 said:
Maybe some look at the overall costs as well. I could have spent £250 on a PCP, £50 on insurance, £250 on fuel, £50 on tyres/ maintenance to drive a 5 year old car worth less than £15k. Alternatively, I chose to spend a similar amount on leasing a fully insured and maintained EV, including about £20 on "fuel" and get to commute in a brand new and significantly better car.
The lower running costs mean that I can easily justify running something a bit nicer than I otherwise would.
All costs other than electricity are factored into the monthlies too whereas I've previously had to stump up on for expensive DPF and injector issues on diesels.
It really isn't though is it. PCP is never the cheap option with the exception of salary sacrifice. You will not save money. The lower running costs mean that I can easily justify running something a bit nicer than I otherwise would.
All costs other than electricity are factored into the monthlies too whereas I've previously had to stump up on for expensive DPF and injector issues on diesels.
You PCP a brand new car for £250 a month or you unsecure loan on a 5 year old car that is worth £15k. That unsecure loan would cost £250 a month and at the end of the term you have an asset you can sell on. If you play your cards right you end up with a car worth 10K which is your capital. The EV is not yours because you rented it and gave it back.
Fuel with a diesel over a 3 year period doing the average 7k miles a year is a little over 3 grand for 3 years so compared to your rented EV anology you have 7000 capital to put into whatever you want in the end. Even if you had to spend £2000 on non wear and tear items you would still be 5k up minus about 1k on interest for the loan.
That is also based on the assumption you can basically charge for free.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Monday 13th May 14:34
At the point I bought (leased through salary sacrifice) my car, the monthly costs from my wife's 2017 Qashqai were within about £50 of my 2023 Polestar with all options ticked. The Polestar is a much nicer car in every single way so it was a no brainer. I personally see no value in owning an old car outright and I'm happy to hand it back at the end of the lease and get something else brand new.
And I basically can charge for free- sometimes I even get paid to use as much electricity as possible
Unreal said:
This kind of sums up how different people are. Let the car decide? Utterly mystifying to me. Not knowing where we're going other than a few milestone destinations is one of the major attractions.
Why is it mystifying that people don't do the same thing as you? The way of travelling as you describe represents a small minority of the trips that UK people make in mainland Europe. You are mainly describing:1. people who are bimbling about in campervans and caravans
2. people bimbling about on long driving holidays - probably retired.
The majority of people are driving to a single destination (e.g. skiing, summer holiday etc). An EV that recommends places to stop for charging is hardly a big impediment to those people's holidays.
John87 said:
My example is from personal experience based on the real monthly costs in my own use case.
At the point I bought (leased through salary sacrifice) my car, the monthly costs from my wife's 2017 Qashqai were within about £50 of my 2023 Polestar with all options ticked. The Polestar is a much nicer car in every single way so it was a no brainer. I personally see no value in owning an old car outright and I'm happy to hand it back at the end of the lease and get something else brand new.
And I basically can charge for free- sometimes I even get paid to use as much electricity as possible
As i said with the exception of salary sacrifice which the tax payer is paying the bill for but for private it is completely different. At the point I bought (leased through salary sacrifice) my car, the monthly costs from my wife's 2017 Qashqai were within about £50 of my 2023 Polestar with all options ticked. The Polestar is a much nicer car in every single way so it was a no brainer. I personally see no value in owning an old car outright and I'm happy to hand it back at the end of the lease and get something else brand new.
And I basically can charge for free- sometimes I even get paid to use as much electricity as possible
TheRainMaker said:
survivalist said:
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV rsnge drops like a stone.
That is a bit of an exaggeration; mine is a bit worse, but not massively.Fully loaded with a roof box and travelling at motorway speeds in the summer is around 200 miles, in the winter around 170 miles.
Once a year, we travel from Surrey up to Scotland, it adds around 20 mins to the journey by taking the EV (433 miles).
If we stop overnight halfway (young kids), it doesn't add any time as we stop at a hotel with chargers.
- testing seems to suggest 15-20% range impact. Add that to the 20% impact of cruising at 90mph compared to 60 and it's a reasonably big impact. Whole point for us was not to stop in a hotel and cover 700 miles in a day. And none of the places we've stayed in France or Spain have had destination charging. For me, as things stand today, it adds too much time and hassle.
Unreal said:
Sheepshanks said:
Unreal said:
Everyone's different, for some EV is a better option, for some it isn't.
I don't agree "everyone" is different - you could group everyone into a few categories.It does baffle me that people keep posting up their own personal use-cases for or against EVs.
Better?
The only baffling thing is why so many people can't accept my point.
I don't have the slightest problem with people making a choice based on whatever criteria they like. I do have a problem with people telling me my choice is wrong based on their criteria for making that choice.
The trouble really starts when an individual has decided that they're in tribe a, and that tribe z are just wrong, regardless. Add in a few pile ons from tribe a and it's no wonder tribe z hunkers down and give some back. Or vice versa.
Meanwhile those in groups b through to y just think I only wanted to learn about a particular question to figure things out a bit better. Or how generally are we to deal with development or change of this feature.
Must admit I'm tempted to duck a toe in at the moment as a second hand car for errands, dog duties etc. Either a Jag iPace or the Merc one. Can't remember it's name as it's white goods. I mean, who can remember the model designation of their washing machine or tumble dryer.
Such a lot of transport for the money. Relatively speaking as cheap as chips.
As it will mainly be used by the Mrs most of the time for going to the gym and Sainsbury's we'd only need to plug it in once every couple of weeks. I'll keep the V8 twin turbo for proper trips as I'm not ready for journey planning and the lottery of a free/working charger just yet.
Such a lot of transport for the money. Relatively speaking as cheap as chips.
As it will mainly be used by the Mrs most of the time for going to the gym and Sainsbury's we'd only need to plug it in once every couple of weeks. I'll keep the V8 twin turbo for proper trips as I'm not ready for journey planning and the lottery of a free/working charger just yet.
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