EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
survivalist said:
They’re only better at a few things. The cheap ones are better at even fewer things.
Currently the uncertainty around future values means the good ones aren’t cheap enough.
Which is why they aren’t selling.
At the moment most of them are only viable as a second car.
Nothing wrong with that, but it limits the appeal further.
That’s so far from true, it’s laughable.Currently the uncertainty around future values means the good ones aren’t cheap enough.
Which is why they aren’t selling.
At the moment most of them are only viable as a second car.
Nothing wrong with that, but it limits the appeal further.
EVs are better at getting you quietly and efficiently from A-B at low cost with minimal environmental damage compared to ICE cars. That’s most of what most people want from personal transportation.
They’re certainly not as good for mega distance drivers with champion bladders, or for people who must behave like the A303 is the Nurburgring, but apart from on PH, most people don’t think that way.
tamore said:
survivalist said:
They’re only better at a few things. The cheap ones are better at even fewer.
Currently the uncertainty around future values means the good ones aren’t cheap enough.
Which is why they aren’t selling.
At the moment most of them are only viable as a second car.
Nothing wrong with that, but it limits the appeal further.
that's your opinion. our primary car is EV and better at everything day to day than it's ICE predecessor. couple of public charging sessions a year is no big deal.Currently the uncertainty around future values means the good ones aren’t cheap enough.
Which is why they aren’t selling.
At the moment most of them are only viable as a second car.
Nothing wrong with that, but it limits the appeal further.
which areas do you feel yours falls short?
Ours doesn’t fall short, it was purchased on the basis that it would always be charged at home and likely never see a long journey.
The areas where longer range EVs fell short were mainly range and dynamic enjoyment.
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV rsnge drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
survivalist said:
It’s all just opinions, ultimately.
Ours doesn’t fall short, it was purchased on the basis that it would always be charged at home and likely never see a long journey.
The areas where longer range EVs fell short were mainly range and dynamic enjoyment.
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV rsnge drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
horses for courses. to hit the south of france, i'd be on a plane or train.Ours doesn’t fall short, it was purchased on the basis that it would always be charged at home and likely never see a long journey.
The areas where longer range EVs fell short were mainly range and dynamic enjoyment.
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV rsnge drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
dynamic enjoyment? barely possible on our roads these days without going out specifically to drive your car in the very early morning or at night. sold my last fun car as in the last year of ownership it was driven for an MOT and one other time for a service!
740EVTORQUES said:
survivalist said:
They’re only better at a few things. The cheap ones are better at even fewer things.
Currently the uncertainty around future values means the good ones aren’t cheap enough.
Which is why they aren’t selling.
At the moment most of them are only viable as a second car.
Nothing wrong with that, but it limits the appeal further.
That’s so far from true, it’s laughable.Currently the uncertainty around future values means the good ones aren’t cheap enough.
Which is why they aren’t selling.
At the moment most of them are only viable as a second car.
Nothing wrong with that, but it limits the appeal further.
EVs are better at getting you quietly and efficiently from A-B at low cost with minimal environmental damage compared to ICE cars. That’s most of what most people want from personal transportation.
They’re certainly not as good for mega distance drivers with champion bladders, or for people who must behave like the A303 is the Nurburgring, but apart from on PH, most people don’t think that way.
Showing a huge amount of naivety right there. The vast majority of people don’t care about any of this.
They look at cost. To them.
If they didn’t they wouldn’t be buying acres of stuff off Amazon, Ali Baba and TikTok shop,
Even those folks claiming to care are just looking at a weak argument to buy a new car.
Auto810graphy said:
Nothing stands out and it seems to change like the weather, we had some e-Vivaros, sat about for 3 weeks with no enquiries then sold 4 in 48 hours, e-Corsa seems good this weekend, LR model 3 in anything but white, higher spec lower power ID3, have runs with Ioniq but buying them at a good price is hard. Also struggling to buy Volvo as they seem to go for crazy money.
Thanks.Funnily enough I thought XC40 would be good for what we want an EV for - ideally the AWD one - but the prices are insane. And our local dealer has an iffy reputation too.
tamore said:
survivalist said:
It’s all just opinions, ultimately.
Ours doesn’t fall short, it was purchased on the basis that it would always be charged at home and likely never see a long journey.
The areas where longer range EVs fell short were mainly range and dynamic enjoyment.
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV rsnge drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
horses for courses. to hit the south of france, i'd be on a plane or train.Ours doesn’t fall short, it was purchased on the basis that it would always be charged at home and likely never see a long journey.
The areas where longer range EVs fell short were mainly range and dynamic enjoyment.
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV rsnge drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
dynamic enjoyment? barely possible on our roads these days without going out specifically to drive your car in the very early morning or at night. sold my last fun car as in the last year of ownership it was driven for an MOT and one other time for a service!
I could fly to the south of France, but the I’d be driving a hire car. The joy of taking your own car is that you get to enjoy the local roads. Aside from that my children love a road trip - nothing like encouraging new petrol/piston heads.
Take one to my children to a sports club on Sunday mornings and he gets to pick the car - 3 ICE and 1 EV . He’s never picked the EV.
GT9 said:
survivalist said:
In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
We haven't had the 80 mph mpg sweetspot for a while, so thanks for the chuckle.Was this during a stupidly low pressure weather pattern?
Maybe 500 millibars at sea level or something.
Pretty standard for any trip I’ve ever had in France, or anywhere north of Manchester.
More importantly, it’s the roof box and the bikes that make an EV a poor option.
EVs are efficient and cost effective, but for a narrow use case.
That’s why I own one for local trips, but why wouldn’t entertain one as an only vehicle. They’re just not there yet.
Edited by survivalist on Sunday 12th May 22:42
survivalist said:
Sounds to me like you just given up on driving, rather than having found a new joy in driving EVs.
I could fly to the south of France, but the I’d be driving a hire car. The joy of taking your own car is that you get to enjoy the local roads. Aside from that my children love a road trip - nothing like encouraging new petrol/piston heads.
Take one to my children to a sports club on Sunday mornings and he gets to pick the car - 3 ICE and 1 EV . He’s never picked the EV.
encouraging petrol heads? they're in for disappointment in a few years!I could fly to the south of France, but the I’d be driving a hire car. The joy of taking your own car is that you get to enjoy the local roads. Aside from that my children love a road trip - nothing like encouraging new petrol/piston heads.
Take one to my children to a sports club on Sunday mornings and he gets to pick the car - 3 ICE and 1 EV . He’s never picked the EV.
there is little joy in driving on UK roads now, that's what I'm getting at. so when making a choice of new vehicle, i wanted certain attributes. able to transport 3 labradors in comfort even on longer journeys, or move up to 8 beer casks at a time. this left me with van derived stuff (in our case an e-combo). so given that, how to make it as easy, convenient and comfortable as possible.
survivalist said:
Currently the uncertainty around future values means the good ones aren’t cheap enough.
Which is why they aren’t selling
At least on the used market I think they are selling because the perceived uncertainty around future values make them very cheap. I don't think it will last.Which is why they aren’t selling
survivalist said:
EVs are efficient and cost effective, but for a narrow use case.
survivalist also said:
The areas where longer range EVs fell short (for us) were mainly range and dynamic enjoyment
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV range drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
The bits I have highlighted in bold are surely the very definition of a 'narrow use case'?! On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV range drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
survivalist said:
Pretty standard for any trip I’ve ever had in France, or anywhere north of Manchester.
More importantly, it’s the roof box and the bikes that make an EV a poor option.
EVs are efficient and cost effective, but for a narrow use case.
That’s why I own one for local trips, but why wouldn’t entertain one as an only vehicle. They’re just not there yet.
Which your 335i is masking.
At 90 mph, whilst you are probably doing the engine a favour by pushing the torque and rpm closer to where it wants to run for maximum efficiency, you are also increasing the power demand non-linearly and that will have a significantly greater effect than marginally increasing the engine's efficiency.
You might think you are getting the best fuel consumption at 90 mph, it will however be be lower at 60-70 mph.
I'm going to suggest that you wouldn't actually cruise at those speeds out of choice, and you've convinced yourself you are saving fuel using man maths.
Fortunately, I already have a useful spreadsheet that I can enter vehicle details into.
Here are the power and energy demands for a constant speed cruise in your car.
GT9 said:
EVs are still efficient at motorway speeds, it's the much higher external energy per mile consumption that kills the range.
Which your 335i is masking.
At 90 mph, whilst you are probably doing the engine a favour by pushing the torque and rpm closer to where it wants to run for maximum efficiency, you are also increasing the power demand non-linearly and that will have a significantly greater effect than marginally increasing the engine's efficiency.
You might think you are getting the best fuel consumption at 90 mph, it will however be be lower at 60-70 mph.
I'm going to suggest that you wouldn't actually cruise at those speeds out of choice, and you've convinced yourself you are saving fuel using man maths.
Fortunately, I already have a useful spreadsheet that I can enter vehicle details into.
Here are the power and energy demands for a constant speed cruise in your car.
Just so I understand this, the efficiency of a petrol car is better at 60mph than at 90mph and the amount of energy needed to overcome drag is. Early three times greater at the higher speed? The OP doesn’t realise this though because it is being masked by the pitiful inefficiency of his ICE car in other ways (mainly thermal waste)?Which your 335i is masking.
At 90 mph, whilst you are probably doing the engine a favour by pushing the torque and rpm closer to where it wants to run for maximum efficiency, you are also increasing the power demand non-linearly and that will have a significantly greater effect than marginally increasing the engine's efficiency.
You might think you are getting the best fuel consumption at 90 mph, it will however be be lower at 60-70 mph.
I'm going to suggest that you wouldn't actually cruise at those speeds out of choice, and you've convinced yourself you are saving fuel using man maths.
Fortunately, I already have a useful spreadsheet that I can enter vehicle details into.
Here are the power and energy demands for a constant speed cruise in your car.
And all of this is masked because he can refuel quickly.
I wonder what he will say when he realises that he can also refuel an EV quickly and at reasonable cost (€0.50/ kWh vs €1.90/ litre for petrol), with most French service stations having banks of rapid chargers?
(That’s around €.12/ mile for electric vs €0.18/ mile for petrol comparing a 50mpg car with a 4 mile/ kWh one)
740EVTORQUES said:
Just so I understand this, the efficiency of a petrol car is better at 60mph than at 90mph and the amount of energy needed to overcome drag is. Early three times greater at the higher speed? The OP doesn’t realise this though because it is being masked by the pitiful inefficiency of his ICE car in other ways (mainly thermal waste)?
And all of this is masked because he can refuel quickly.
I wonder what he will say when he realises that he can also refuel an EV quickly and at reasonable cost (€0.50/ kWh vs €1.90/ litre for petrol), with most French service stations having banks of rapid chargers?
(That’s around €.12/ mile for electric vs €0.18/ mile for petrol comparing a 50mpg car with a 4 mile/ kWh one)
I wouldn't say the efficiency of the engine itself is better at 60 mph, because that depends on where in the BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) map that puts the engine, which also depends on which gear the car is in. And all of this is masked because he can refuel quickly.
I wonder what he will say when he realises that he can also refuel an EV quickly and at reasonable cost (€0.50/ kWh vs €1.90/ litre for petrol), with most French service stations having banks of rapid chargers?
(That’s around €.12/ mile for electric vs €0.18/ mile for petrol comparing a 50mpg car with a 4 mile/ kWh one)
At these speeds of course, you'd expect the car or driver to select the highest gear.
In fact you might get a marginally higher thermal efficiency (or lower BSFC) from a large engine at 90 mph than 60 mph because the torque demand on the engine is higher.
The power demand (i.e. brake horsepower) is however increasing non-linearly due to drag, so absolute fuel consumption increases.
Bear in mind that energy is power multiplied by time, so for energy per mile, whilst the drag power is 3 times higher, the time spent covering the mile reduces linearly with speed, making the energy consumed by drag (per mile) a square law.
The shape of the black line on the graph will tally fairly closely with the actual mpg.
To be clear, the value for energy per mile shown doesn't include energy lost to accelerating/braking the car, any effect due to inclines or the heat loss in the engine and transmission.
Drag also varies with air density, i.e. outside air temperature and altitude.
Which is why I joked earlier about him getting better fuel consumption at 500 millibar ambient air pressure, i.e. equivalent to 5500 m metres or 18,000 ft altitude.
The same reason why aircraft fly at high altitude to decrease fuel consumption.
Survivalist might validly argue that time is money, and he is saving money that way by travelling at 90 mph, assuming of course he doesn't get pulled for speeding.
As an aside, the NOx and CO2 output per mile for a diesel engine is likely to follow the black line as well.
For a petrol engine, the same doesn't apply for NOx, only for CO2.
The diesel engine's increasing NOx per mile is why we get reduced speed limits in the name of air quality.
If CO2 reductions per mile are targeted, then that applies to both engine types.
Most of that goes away for an EV, given that the production of the battery is the largest source of lifetime CO2, not the electricity to charge it.
For a petrol engine, the same doesn't apply for NOx, only for CO2.
The diesel engine's increasing NOx per mile is why we get reduced speed limits in the name of air quality.
If CO2 reductions per mile are targeted, then that applies to both engine types.
Most of that goes away for an EV, given that the production of the battery is the largest source of lifetime CO2, not the electricity to charge it.
740EVTORQUES said:
Just so I understand this, the efficiency of a petrol car is better at 60mph than at 90mph and the amount of energy needed to overcome drag is. Early three times greater at the higher speed? The OP doesn’t realise this though because it is being masked by the pitiful inefficiency of his ICE car in other ways (mainly thermal waste)?
And all of this is masked because he can refuel quickly.
I wonder what he will say when he realises that he can also refuel an EV quickly and at reasonable cost (€0.50/ kWh vs €1.90/ litre for petrol), with most French service stations having banks of rapid chargers?
(That’s around €.12/ mile for electric vs €0.18/ mile for petrol comparing a 50mpg car with a 4 mile/ kWh one)
You’ve gone from efficiency to cost, big mistake lol.And all of this is masked because he can refuel quickly.
I wonder what he will say when he realises that he can also refuel an EV quickly and at reasonable cost (€0.50/ kWh vs €1.90/ litre for petrol), with most French service stations having banks of rapid chargers?
(That’s around €.12/ mile for electric vs €0.18/ mile for petrol comparing a 50mpg car with a 4 mile/ kWh one)
Remove all taxes from all cars and start again, there will never be even so much as a slightly level playing field while the government manipulates with taxes.
And for EVs, they’re coming.
Im not anti ev btw
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