Tesla unlikely to Survive (Vol. 3)
Discussion
taxi firm suspend Tesla fleet in Paris excuse the link https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10...
Tesla say 'Driver Error'
I have to say what person stomps on the gas rather than the brake. Let alone a professional driver. I know it sounds crazy and it does happen. I just can't see the car accelerating and lose braking due to a fault.
Tesla say 'Driver Error'
I have to say what person stomps on the gas rather than the brake. Let alone a professional driver. I know it sounds crazy and it does happen. I just can't see the car accelerating and lose braking due to a fault.
Burwood said:
I have to say what person stomps on the gas rather than the brake. Let alone a professional driver. I know it sounds crazy and it does happen. I just can't see the car accelerating and lose braking due to a fault.
Apparently it happens quite often due to panic. People want to slam on the brake, but instead they slam on the accellerator. Not being fully aware they are on the wrong pedal, they push harder in order to brake harder.Burwood said:
taxi firm suspend Tesla fleet in Paris excuse the link https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10...
Tesla say 'Driver Error'
I have to say what person stomps on the gas rather than the brake. Let alone a professional driver. I know it sounds crazy and it does happen. I just can't see the car accelerating and lose braking due to a fault.
In one of the articles the driver stated he deliberately drove into the street lamps in an attempt to stop the run away vehicle. Very odd.Tesla say 'Driver Error'
I have to say what person stomps on the gas rather than the brake. Let alone a professional driver. I know it sounds crazy and it does happen. I just can't see the car accelerating and lose braking due to a fault.
coetzeeh said:
Burwood said:
taxi firm suspend Tesla fleet in Paris excuse the link https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10...
Tesla say 'Driver Error'
I have to say what person stomps on the gas rather than the brake. Let alone a professional driver. I know it sounds crazy and it does happen. I just can't see the car accelerating and lose braking due to a fault.
In one of the articles the driver stated he deliberately drove into the street lamps in an attempt to stop the run away vehicle. Very odd.Tesla say 'Driver Error'
I have to say what person stomps on the gas rather than the brake. Let alone a professional driver. I know it sounds crazy and it does happen. I just can't see the car accelerating and lose braking due to a fault.
Edited by Burwood on Thursday 16th December 11:42
Smiljan said:
Not seen anywhere that the driver has been charged with any crime.
but he has retained a lawyer because he is being investigated for manslaughter and Tesla have to date maintained ‘nothing wrong with the car’ as they have in 200 like cases and been correct every time. Not sure why anyone doubts it. Cars’ brakes don’t fail unless it’s a mob film 
Man in fatal accident uses a lawyer… no surprise, probably provided by his insurer
Police investigate fatal accident for cause and potential criminal behaviour.. as they always do
Tesla deny a problem with car before getting it in a workshop to investigate thoroughly because the computer says so.. like computers never get it wrong
Only one of the three above is inappropriate behaviour.
I’m not saying there was a fault with the car, but it would be nice if Tesla (and fanboys who keep posting it wasn’t the Tesla); said something like
‘The car has extensive telemetry and potentially video logging, much more than any other car, and we’ll be helping the investigation team access this information to understand what happened, the driver inputs and any other material factors. Our sympathies are with the families of all those concerned’
Rather than
‘It wasn’t our fault’
Police investigate fatal accident for cause and potential criminal behaviour.. as they always do
Tesla deny a problem with car before getting it in a workshop to investigate thoroughly because the computer says so.. like computers never get it wrong
Only one of the three above is inappropriate behaviour.
I’m not saying there was a fault with the car, but it would be nice if Tesla (and fanboys who keep posting it wasn’t the Tesla); said something like
‘The car has extensive telemetry and potentially video logging, much more than any other car, and we’ll be helping the investigation team access this information to understand what happened, the driver inputs and any other material factors. Our sympathies are with the families of all those concerned’
Rather than
‘It wasn’t our fault’
Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 20th December 05:59
ZesPak said:
So you would prefer the political answer over the factual one?
Tesla can't possibly know all the facts yet. At best they can say "we've remotely pulled the logs from the car and a preliminary inspection tells us x"
They can't always tell if a component that was capturing telemetry was working correctly or not. I needed to take a mecahnic on a test drive as he didn't believe me until he saw it that my car threw itself off the road whenever I engaged autopilot - their logs said the steering was pointing ahead when it clearly wasn't in the real world and only after he saw it did he replace the sensor. Thats a personal example of the computer logs being wrong.
Until you piece together data from the scene, telemetery from the car, inspection of various sensors etc etc etc you can't conclude anything. It's the basis of any investigation. But you'd rather leap to Tesla's defense rather than want them to support a proper investigation before concluding it wasn't the car?
Burwood said:
Interesting reading the NHTSA summary - almost 100 of those cases there was no log data available from Tesla. Strangely though for ones that data could be accessed they all proved that the drivers had pressed the accelerator instead of the brake.In one case the driver wasn't in the car and the incident was attributed to snow on his drive rather than a car fault.
As for the often trotted insistence that power cannot be sent to the motors when the brake is pressed (which I also assumed) - that isn't true. If the accelerator is pressed before or within 100 ms of the brake pedal then motor power is cut. If the brake is pressed and then you stomp on the accelerator then motor power is applied but limited to 50 kW.
To me the investigation into the 200+ reports of unintended acceleration focused more on the design and expected operation of the systems in place and found nothing wrong in the design. It didn't explain why logs for almost half of the cases couldn't be provided for investigation and leaves open the idea that perhaps in some of these cases a component in the car may have contributed.
In the Paris crash, from the video footage, this wasn't just lurch forward. The car was travelling at very high speed, clearly out of control. The taxi driver has almost 40 years unblemished career and I'm struggling to see why he didn't just press park on the drive selector or mash the brake pedal to stop the car.
Someone has died, I'd rather see some sort of official statement with facts before insisting it was the driver's fault than just say it can't be the car because an anonymous Tesla employee said so. It's not like Tesla have lied about crash deaths before is it?
If there was an inherent fault with the car design, I'm sure it would be reproducible and easy to prove by now. If there's a fault with this one car, I'd prefer it was uncovered, further changes put in place to prevent it happening again rather than just sweep it away and blame the driver immediately.
Smiljan said:
In the Paris crash, from the video footage, this wasn't just lurch forward. The car was travelling at very high speed, clearly out of control. The taxi driver has almost 40 years unblemished career and I'm struggling to see why he didn't just press park on the drive selector or mash the brake pedal to stop the car.
Are you actually suggesting Tesla AP software can carry out the reported actions and that the human driver has no input???This reminds me of the Tesla crash in Texas, two men who has been drinking gets into a newly acquired high performance car, end in a fatal accident within a few hundred meters of the house when trying to around the corner......Clearly the most sensible and only logical conclusion to that is Tesla AP software is to blame.
Given the biggest compliant people who use AP software is 'phantom braking' its hard to think how the same software can be blame for zero braking? Or is it a case even with a unblemished driving record for 40 years, human drivers make mistakes, and sometimes fatal ones?
Wow Paris Tesla going past a CCTV camera, boy it was flying! Couldn't see a linky here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEjwLKE0cCQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEjwLKE0cCQ
This is probably one of those details that may never be in the public eye but I would be interested in knowing how for the modern cars which are all sensor pedals rather than "by wire" and also have an AP function, how these are differentiated in the cars logs. I'm sure they are by default, but I wonder how fool proof that identification system actually is as if the system can error to trigger unintended acceleration, how can it prove that it doesn't do so because it incorrectly logs/interprets a signal as the pedal being pressed?
The 200 incidents of accelerator/brake confusion does sound like a lot but on the scale of every day accidents (not read the article so don't know the time period under consideration) I don't know if that's actually any higher than any other marque of car. It might also be an inditement on the "one pedal" style of driving where your habits just become a bit more lax or used to only using the pedal.
The 200 incidents of accelerator/brake confusion does sound like a lot but on the scale of every day accidents (not read the article so don't know the time period under consideration) I don't know if that's actually any higher than any other marque of car. It might also be an inditement on the "one pedal" style of driving where your habits just become a bit more lax or used to only using the pedal.
They explain how it's supposed to work in this blog from Jan 2020.
It's also strange to see them say "each system.....records data so we can examine exactly what happened" - why then were over 100 of the cases unable to be investigated properly as no data was present?
Always good to be skeptical, especially with a company well known for misleading their customers over and over again.
Tesla said:
There is no “unintended acceleration” in Tesla vehicles
The Tesla Team 20 January 2020
This petition is completely false and was brought by a Tesla short-seller. We investigate every single incident where the driver alleges to us that their vehicle accelerated contrary to their input, and in every case where we had the vehicle's data, we confirmed that the car operated as designed. In other words, the car accelerates if, and only if, the driver told it to do so, and it slows or stops when the driver applies the brake.
While accidents caused by a mistaken press of the accelerator pedal have been alleged for nearly every make/model of vehicle on the road, the accelerator pedals in Model S, X and 3 vehicles have two independent position sensors, and if there is any error, the system defaults to cut off motor torque. Likewise, applying the brake pedal simultaneously with the accelerator pedal will override the accelerator pedal input and cut off motor torque, and regardless of the torque, sustained braking will stop the car. Unique to Tesla, we also use the Autopilot sensor suite to help distinguish potential pedal misapplications and cut torque to mitigate or prevent accidents when we’re confident the driver’s input was unintentional. Each system is independent and records data, so we can examine exactly what happened.
We are transparent with NHTSA, and routinely review customer complaints of unintended acceleration with them. Over the past several years, we discussed with NHTSA the majority of the complaints alleged in the petition. In every case we reviewed with them, the data proved the vehicle functioned properly.
So this Taxi driver by default must also be a short seller out killing people in a vain attempt to profit from a stock price fall. The Tesla Team 20 January 2020
This petition is completely false and was brought by a Tesla short-seller. We investigate every single incident where the driver alleges to us that their vehicle accelerated contrary to their input, and in every case where we had the vehicle's data, we confirmed that the car operated as designed. In other words, the car accelerates if, and only if, the driver told it to do so, and it slows or stops when the driver applies the brake.
While accidents caused by a mistaken press of the accelerator pedal have been alleged for nearly every make/model of vehicle on the road, the accelerator pedals in Model S, X and 3 vehicles have two independent position sensors, and if there is any error, the system defaults to cut off motor torque. Likewise, applying the brake pedal simultaneously with the accelerator pedal will override the accelerator pedal input and cut off motor torque, and regardless of the torque, sustained braking will stop the car. Unique to Tesla, we also use the Autopilot sensor suite to help distinguish potential pedal misapplications and cut torque to mitigate or prevent accidents when we’re confident the driver’s input was unintentional. Each system is independent and records data, so we can examine exactly what happened.
We are transparent with NHTSA, and routinely review customer complaints of unintended acceleration with them. Over the past several years, we discussed with NHTSA the majority of the complaints alleged in the petition. In every case we reviewed with them, the data proved the vehicle functioned properly.
It's also strange to see them say "each system.....records data so we can examine exactly what happened" - why then were over 100 of the cases unable to be investigated properly as no data was present?
Always good to be skeptical, especially with a company well known for misleading their customers over and over again.
Edited by Smiljan on Monday 20th December 13:17
lost in espace said:
Wow Paris Tesla going past a CCTV camera, boy it was flying! Couldn't see a linky here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEjwLKE0cCQ
Holy shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEjwLKE0cCQ
t! That's a lot of kinetic energy!Smiljan said:
Always good to be skeptical, especially with a company well know for misleading their customers over and over again.
There's skeptical and there is just ignoring the blatant obvious facts.The biggest cause of any accidents in any vehicle is never the equipment, certainly never software or sensor readings.
If you really care about road safety what you should be pushing for is the removal of the weakest link from operating 2ton+ metal boxes with upto 1000bhp on the roads.....
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