Has Anyone Ever Bought a Lemon?
Discussion
Thanks siwes for your tale of costliness. Thanks also for your insights BB and joolzb. As far as cost, either new or used, Griffs are reasonable for the performance and grin factor. Father had a Ferrari 308qv and needed to practically adopt a mechanic named Mario, so I am well aware that performance cars ARE tempermental by their nature. I also suspect that few if any Griff owners are delicate with the throttle and tend to push their cars futher than the average Focus driver (Max Power veerions apart). Ergo, I expect some bills but less than an equivalent priced Ferrari or classic Lamborghini. I am willing to pay for my kicks but not to asign my house over to some Italian spanner jockey - or a Blackpool trained one come to that!!!
siwes said:
Johno,
. Well some of us can be objective about these cars , it is obvious you can not, that is your problem , sometimes the truth hurts a little.
Griffs agree with me or do you know more than three people with them.
regards
Si
Si,
You assume a great deal about me as an individual.
I have had my Griffith for 10 months. I have covered 22,000 miles in it. So far this is what has gone wrong ..
Radiator
Steering Rack
Bottom Pulley bolt
Heater control matrix
PAS high pressure hose
Clutch pipe snapped (likely debris from road)
Yes it has stone chips, but so did my last TVR and every other one I know. Helps to have a friend with a paintshop.
I am not the richest man on the planet by any means. I did run the Griffith every day until a month ago and trust it implicitly.
It has only left me stranded once, and given the the time I could have sorted it then and there but, I didn't have it.
Apart from that it has been a glorious car and continues to be so. Most of the above has been covered by a full warranty anyway.
So next time you assume I'm a 4,000 mile a year casual user who earns huge sums and can afford to forget the bills maybe you'll think to research before you hit the keys.
oh yeah, apart from the 22,000 miles in 10 months it has done 4 trackdays and is about to Donington next week..... It put in the 8th fastest lap at Zolder this year and I could have tried harder. Just to prove that it does get 'used'.
I am charmed by the car, it is beautiful, fast, and makes me smile every time I use it, I admit .... therefore I am unrational, unsubjective and unable to make a clear distinction about its cost an reliability .... I think not.
It out performs Elise's, it's far better looking, charming and engaging to drive than a Porsche and I don't like Ferrari's ....
I know .... I better buy a Mondeo ! Then I could argue I was truly subjective, in fact if life was truly subjective would I waste the time answering you !
Just edited to add that I'll have to tell my Dad that's he's barking mad as well to have a 4.5 Chimaera ..... Must be madness in the family
>> Edited by johno on Thursday 18th September 01:13
>> Edited by johno on Thursday 18th September 01:15
OK, from the perspective of a prospective buyer this threead has not been very helpful, I have to say.
We all know you can run into a rough patch with older cars, one costly repair leading into another. The only difference between an E-reg Escort and a Griff is that you don't tend to just ditch the latter...
The original question was: 'has anyone bought a lemon?'
Now I don't know about you folks, but when I think 'lemon' in the context of an expensive second hand cars, I think hidden pasts, dodgy repairs, cut 'n' shut jobs, 52-reg Griffs with tired pre-serpentine engines installed - that kind of stuff. Particularly the off-chance of buying one that had a shunt bad enough to damage the chassis, but without it having had the benefit of a proper replacement, or a car that's not technically owned by the seller is a terrifying thought (to me, at least).
Come to think of it, the British specialist/classic motor trade as a whole doesn't have the best of reputations internationally. I've heard the phrase 'crooks and thieves' more than once.
So - has anyone bought a car that turned out to be grossly misrepresented? Or had trouble with warranty claims on a seconhand Griff/Chim?
We all know you can run into a rough patch with older cars, one costly repair leading into another. The only difference between an E-reg Escort and a Griff is that you don't tend to just ditch the latter...
The original question was: 'has anyone bought a lemon?'
Now I don't know about you folks, but when I think 'lemon' in the context of an expensive second hand cars, I think hidden pasts, dodgy repairs, cut 'n' shut jobs, 52-reg Griffs with tired pre-serpentine engines installed - that kind of stuff. Particularly the off-chance of buying one that had a shunt bad enough to damage the chassis, but without it having had the benefit of a proper replacement, or a car that's not technically owned by the seller is a terrifying thought (to me, at least).
Come to think of it, the British specialist/classic motor trade as a whole doesn't have the best of reputations internationally. I've heard the phrase 'crooks and thieves' more than once.
So - has anyone bought a car that turned out to be grossly misrepresented? Or had trouble with warranty claims on a seconhand Griff/Chim?
900T-R said:
OK, from the perspective of a prospective buyer this threead has not been very helpful, I have to say.
That's true to some extent, what I've learnt from it is that new buyers generally have this belief that TVRs are very unreliable. This was a view pointed out to me before I went and bought one. I'm happy to tell people when they jip the cars reliability just how reliable it's been (ok so I'm a fairly low usage user).
This is an open forum and people are going to stand up for their Griffs just like I tend to, the forum's been open to allow people to put negative comments down too as some have, generally the points made have been positive in my opinion and constructive. I can't tell people about things that haven't gone wrong with my car.
On the other hand, you're more likely to get people on here who are happy with their cars as they've not had massive bills like smiffy who decided the car wasn't worth it, I can't blame him for that bearing in mind the damage to his back bin.
In answer to the question, I personally haven't bought a lemon.
I think that the post is simply asking if there are many of us out there who's Griff keeps either breaking down or costing them unexpected / unbudgeted for large sums of money...
... and I'm still waiting for all the horror stories...
... and waiting...
ok, seriously... we all know there are the odd few that do have bad problems, but as a proportion of the amount of Griffs out there, being enjoyed to the full and bringing unbelievable pleasure and excitement to even to simplest of journeys... then I reckon they're ok in my book.
Sorry to those few that have had the problems, but in the words of my esteemed RO... "at least if these go wrong you just
!" 
try doing that on a Ferrari 
>> Edited by burriana500 on Thursday 18th September 09:20
... and I'm still waiting for all the horror stories...
... and waiting...
ok, seriously... we all know there are the odd few that do have bad problems, but as a proportion of the amount of Griffs out there, being enjoyed to the full and bringing unbelievable pleasure and excitement to even to simplest of journeys... then I reckon they're ok in my book.
Sorry to those few that have had the problems, but in the words of my esteemed RO... "at least if these go wrong you just
!" try doing that on a Ferrari >> Edited by burriana500 on Thursday 18th September 09:20
Too true - ain't nothing you can't right, as far as I can tell 
I guess there were a few times in my first year of Griff ownership where I might have thought that my example wasn't the best. But I stuck at it (with lots of confident moises coming from both Dave Batty and these hallowed forums) and despite a bit of ragging from work colleagues. Even then, it was nothing serious - feel free to browse profile for the nitty gritty
My only concern now is that I have just moved (now parked outside instead of a nice warm garage) and, if I get a job soon (which might be a good idea - made redundant in the Spring), it'll probably be in town and I won't get to drive the Griff every day 
.....
....then will it still be as reliable
...or will I be able to afford a Tuscan
PS why are "unwaxed" lemons more expensive? You'd have thought that you'd pay more for the wax...
right, as far as I can tell I guess there were a few times in my first year of Griff ownership where I might have thought that my example wasn't the best. But I stuck at it (with lots of confident moises coming from both Dave Batty and these hallowed forums) and despite a bit of ragging from work colleagues. Even then, it was nothing serious - feel free to browse profile for the nitty gritty
My only concern now is that I have just moved (now parked outside instead of a nice warm garage) and, if I get a job soon (which might be a good idea
- made redundant in the Spring), it'll probably be in town and I won't get to drive the Griff every day ..... ....then will it still be as reliable
...or will I be able to afford a Tuscan
PS why are "unwaxed" lemons more expensive? You'd have thought that you'd pay more for the wax...
Well, the problem is - suppose I buy this car, and find after, like, six to twelve months I get one expensive repair bill after another. Did I buy a lemon?
Hard to tell IMO if the string of repairs is the result of years of neglect, skimping, dodgy repair work after a major component gave out or even after a prang, or just plain bad luck. When there is evidence of the former, yes, I did buy a lemon, but if the car checked OK on every account at purchase date and there was every indication the car has been properly maintained up to that point, it's more a question of 'sh*t happens'...
You never know - with every kind of cars known to mankind there are examples which need next to nothing apart from regular servicing and keep on going, and others that have needed repair/replacement of every mechanical component you can think of in the same timespan. May I gently suggest that cars that have been covering 40,000 miles of the past dozen of years are more likely to belong to the second category than ones that have been doing 140,000 over the same period?
And secondly, based on all information and accounts I have up until now, I would say that because of its relative mechanical simplicity and proportion of non-bespoke parts used, the potential running costs in case of a worst case scenario are considerably lower with a Griff than with something of comparable performance and charisma, most notably Ferraris and Porkers.
Hard to tell IMO if the string of repairs is the result of years of neglect, skimping, dodgy repair work after a major component gave out or even after a prang, or just plain bad luck. When there is evidence of the former, yes, I did buy a lemon, but if the car checked OK on every account at purchase date and there was every indication the car has been properly maintained up to that point, it's more a question of 'sh*t happens'...
You never know - with every kind of cars known to mankind there are examples which need next to nothing apart from regular servicing and keep on going, and others that have needed repair/replacement of every mechanical component you can think of in the same timespan. May I gently suggest that cars that have been covering 40,000 miles of the past dozen of years are more likely to belong to the second category than ones that have been doing 140,000 over the same period?
And secondly, based on all information and accounts I have up until now, I would say that because of its relative mechanical simplicity and proportion of non-bespoke parts used, the potential running costs in case of a worst case scenario are considerably lower with a Griff than with something of comparable performance and charisma, most notably Ferraris and Porkers.
Johno,
I persume nothing about you as an individule, I dont know you so why would I . I do know your type though and that is the type who can stand no critism about their cars , justified or unjustified whatever the case, I dont get personnel , what I have posted is simple plain truth about Griffs nothing more. Mine is not an isolated case far from it, a good 50% of the Griffs produced go through the repairs that mine has gone through , that is really unacceptable even for TVR, I love the cars as much as the next owner , my smile is as big as yours when I drive the bloody thing, its just I am more honest about them than you are. Put another 20-30,000 miles on yours and then come back to this topic.
regards
Si
I persume nothing about you as an individule, I dont know you so why would I . I do know your type though and that is the type who can stand no critism about their cars , justified or unjustified whatever the case, I dont get personnel , what I have posted is simple plain truth about Griffs nothing more. Mine is not an isolated case far from it, a good 50% of the Griffs produced go through the repairs that mine has gone through , that is really unacceptable even for TVR, I love the cars as much as the next owner , my smile is as big as yours when I drive the bloody thing, its just I am more honest about them than you are. Put another 20-30,000 miles on yours and then come back to this topic.
regards
Si
I have a soft spot for TVRs.
I love Griffs.
I bought a precat one.
It's an old car.
I expected a certain amount of fettling from point of sale.
I went over it like the SARS virus did in the east and had most niggles sorted (you could use Rob Ingleby, et all).
I budgeted £2K a year for it's maintenance.
Only spent a third of that the first year.
It broke down, I was covered by the RAC.
It overheated, I fixed it.
I shagged my ex on the bonnet... err, sorry, ...digressing.
Cars are what you make them - you can sit at the bar in the pub mumbling senselessly at the bar staff, or visit forums and type crap, or you can do a little research (this tombe has more than enough usefull stuff), and become slightly less than naive about the purchase. After all, would you go to Tesco's and spend £10-25K of your hard earned on lemons (waxed or not..)? If you have the readies - then £9000 for a porch [sic] gearbox shouldn't matter. My gearbox cost me £400.
I'm rambling.
I love Griffs.
I bought a precat one.
It's an old car.
I expected a certain amount of fettling from point of sale.
I went over it like the SARS virus did in the east and had most niggles sorted (you could use Rob Ingleby, et all).
I budgeted £2K a year for it's maintenance.
Only spent a third of that the first year.
It broke down, I was covered by the RAC.
It overheated, I fixed it.
I shagged my ex on the bonnet... err, sorry, ...digressing.
Cars are what you make them - you can sit at the bar in the pub mumbling senselessly at the bar staff, or visit forums and type crap, or you can do a little research (this tombe has more than enough usefull stuff), and become slightly less than naive about the purchase. After all, would you go to Tesco's and spend £10-25K of your hard earned on lemons (waxed or not..)? If you have the readies - then £9000 for a porch [sic] gearbox shouldn't matter. My gearbox cost me £400.
I'm rambling.
Oh hell, the problems and costs people have described so far are to be expected from ANY car. It costs about a grand a year to keep a car in the same shape it started in unless you're talking about a Morris Minor or similar; it's just that we at Pistonheads we care more about our cars, use them harder, maintain them to a higher standard than the population at large. I've just gone through 11 years of the family budget - we've averaged $1669/year. We run cars that are KNOWN for reliability and durability, mass-market automobiles with excellent reputations (1988 Toyota Corolla, 1993 Pontiac Grand Prix, both exchanged in 2000 for a Honda Civic Si (B16A) and a Subaru Legacy), and it still isn't cheap. Cars aren't perfect; if they were, manufacturers would go out of business. The Minor nearly killed BMC because it didn't break enough; automakers sell cars, but earn their living at the parts counters. If you're so concerned about reliability and running costs that it will significantly impact your choice of vehicle, then you should simply buy $500 clunkers and run them for a year, not even changing the oil, and sending them off for scrap at the end of the year.
Hmm, glad to see that my Griff has achieved cult status. I called it a "cult" a few times, well - very close anyway.
1stly - in it's defense the car was gorgeous. Just like all the other griff owners I was totally smitten. The performance, noise, presence were all fantastic. I don't regret buying a griff, I just regret buying *that* griff.
I bought it from Harrogate Horseless Carriages. That was my first mistake - no I'm not saying they were hopeless (although buy me a beer and I might be more forthcoming) but they were so far from me. The 1st lesson has to be to buy from a dealer near to you. I live in Brighton. I found that over the phone it just didn't work and although they offered to do work themselves, they wouldn't pay for another closer garage to do it which I can understand.
Everything went wrong with the car.
The most major problem was the engine. It developed chronic backpressure after 19,000 miles. As the car had FTVRSH I thought this would be covered under warranty. Oh no. After lots of arguments with TVR and having to pay for the exploratory work, we agreed that I would pay the labour and TVR would pay for the parts. All this after hearing that the Rover engine was "bulletproof".
The wishbones rotted through and collapsed at one side. The radiator rotted through. The air con failed (fairly usual as I understand it). The water pump died, as did the alternator. Various sets of front discs warped and that was never properly cured. I never had a service for less than 1000 quid.
ALl in all I had the car 10 months and including depreciation it cost me just short of £16,000.
TVRs for me are therefore a constant source of disappointment & frusration of how the dream turned nightmare. Griffs still turn my head, and I still love the sound. I just couldn't trust TVR with another 30 grand for a car where I'd be too nervous to properly enjoy it. It's part of the reason I turned to the dark side and am on my second Impreza. Different driving experience, sure, but utterly reliable and narcotic too.
Hats off to those guys who were lucky enough to get a great Griff. I wish mine had been the same!
1stly - in it's defense the car was gorgeous. Just like all the other griff owners I was totally smitten. The performance, noise, presence were all fantastic. I don't regret buying a griff, I just regret buying *that* griff.
I bought it from Harrogate Horseless Carriages. That was my first mistake - no I'm not saying they were hopeless (although buy me a beer and I might be more forthcoming) but they were so far from me. The 1st lesson has to be to buy from a dealer near to you. I live in Brighton. I found that over the phone it just didn't work and although they offered to do work themselves, they wouldn't pay for another closer garage to do it which I can understand.
Everything went wrong with the car.
The most major problem was the engine. It developed chronic backpressure after 19,000 miles. As the car had FTVRSH I thought this would be covered under warranty. Oh no. After lots of arguments with TVR and having to pay for the exploratory work, we agreed that I would pay the labour and TVR would pay for the parts. All this after hearing that the Rover engine was "bulletproof".
The wishbones rotted through and collapsed at one side. The radiator rotted through. The air con failed (fairly usual as I understand it). The water pump died, as did the alternator. Various sets of front discs warped and that was never properly cured. I never had a service for less than 1000 quid.
ALl in all I had the car 10 months and including depreciation it cost me just short of £16,000.
TVRs for me are therefore a constant source of disappointment & frusration of how the dream turned nightmare. Griffs still turn my head, and I still love the sound. I just couldn't trust TVR with another 30 grand for a car where I'd be too nervous to properly enjoy it. It's part of the reason I turned to the dark side and am on my second Impreza. Different driving experience, sure, but utterly reliable and narcotic too.
Hats off to those guys who were lucky enough to get a great Griff. I wish mine had been the same!
Thanks Smifffy
are you all reading this , you too Johno, here is one of the 50% I was talking about.
Its a pity you are so put off the car, but I have to say Im getting pretty close to buying a 355, and never taking the griff out again except on a low loader for shows and such like , its the best and cheapest way to own one, never start the engine, thats a bit unfair I know, only joking.
Simon
are you all reading this , you too Johno, here is one of the 50% I was talking about.
Its a pity you are so put off the car, but I have to say Im getting pretty close to buying a 355, and never taking the griff out again except on a low loader for shows and such like , its the best and cheapest way to own one, never start the engine, thats a bit unfair I know, only joking.
Simon
Siwes, are you therefore saying that you'd strongly suggest against buying a Griff because they're unreliable, expensive etc? I'm just curious and would prob be helpful towards what the topic was asking.
Smiffy(if you're still on here),
What was the cost of repairs against depreciation? 16k is alot in my book but how much did you pay for repairs against loss of car value?
Smiffy(if you're still on here),
What was the cost of repairs against depreciation? 16k is alot in my book but how much did you pay for repairs against loss of car value?
siwes said:
Johno,
I persume nothing about you as an individule, I dont know you so why would I . I do know your type though and that is the type who can stand no critism about their cars , justified or unjustified whatever the case, I dont get personnel , what I have posted is simple plain truth about Griffs nothing more. Mine is not an isolated case far from it, a good 50% of the Griffs produced go through the repairs that mine has gone through , that is really unacceptable even for TVR, I love the cars as much as the next owner , my smile is as big as yours when I drive the bloody thing, its just I am more honest about them than you are. Put another 20-30,000 miles on yours and then come back to this topic.
regards
Si
Si,
I am totally realistic about the expense of my Griffith as are the several people I know who own them. When the car starts to cost me an unreasonable amount of money then I will change it.
Smiffy's car was exceptional, he will tell you that over a beer. I know, I've had that conversation with him over that very beer .... before I bought my Griffith.
I also happen to know someone with a Griffith with 80,000 miles on it who hasn't spent a fortune on his...
I am well prepared to take criticism of the Griffith and I would be a fool to say it was a cheap car to run, what really iritates me is that you seem to have had an unfortunate car and therefore assume all of them are. They are not.
It is bloody expensive but they are not all as expensive as yours .... not even 50% of them.
siwes said:
I do know your type though and that is the type who can stand no critism about their cars , justified or unjustified whatever the case,
So you don't presume anything then ???
siwes said:
Put another 20-30,000 miles on yours and then come back to this topic.
See you in 12-18 months then Si ....
>> Edited by johno on Saturday 20th September 13:18
Si,
Just edited to add that I have done 22,000 miles in 10 months myself, the car already had 13,000 miles on it when I got it ....
>> Edited by johno on Saturday 20th September 13:21
Joolz, The depreciation was 7k. (Bought for £30k, sold for £23k).
Johno and I did share that beer, and I'd have loved my griff to work the same way his does - I did love that car and that's why it hurt so much when it was a bag of shite.
Just luck of the draw at the end of the day. It has put me off owning another TVR - the heart says yes, the head & wallet says no. Doesn't mean it's the same for everyone.
cheers!
Johno and I did share that beer, and I'd have loved my griff to work the same way his does - I did love that car and that's why it hurt so much when it was a bag of shite.
Just luck of the draw at the end of the day. It has put me off owning another TVR - the heart says yes, the head & wallet says no. Doesn't mean it's the same for everyone.
cheers!Well mine is a '92 pre-cat and in the past 6000 miles all I've had to shell out is £1.50 for the clip that holds the bonnet stay! Going in for it's 54k service soon and I dont forsee any great expenditure. Shocks are a little worn and could do with replacing and needs a front end re-spray (just cosmetic) but thats to be expected on a car 12 years old. I love this car. Oh, the only thing that doesnt work is the wiper delay switch - seeing as I try not to drive it in the wet I can live with out that!
Hi Guys,
I'm reading this particular thread with great interest.
I was smitten by the Tamora and then the T350 which I was saving up for all last and this year. Sadly some hefty bills (and other things!) came my way and now I've got to reappraise my budget
I know it's going to be 2-3 yrs before I can afford to buy and run a new/newish performance car so my purchase will be a Griff next spring now (or winter if there's a good discounted bargain to be had).
It's a shame I missed out on such a good summer this year - I'm so envious of you lot! Next year's will probably be crap knowing my luck.
I'm happy to report that the lemons reported thus far haven't dissuaded me from getting one. The other gripes are what I was expecting from any performance car and I'm still not convinced they fully merit TVRs poor reputation.
I am interested though, being a future buyer, how easy it will be to spot any lemon and advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
I've noticed on a few threads unsatisfied owners selling on these so called lemons and not necessarily at too bad a depreciation!
Just how honest are these sellers at detailing the problems and how much more security is there to be gained from buying from a dealer?
thanks
I'm reading this particular thread with great interest.
I was smitten by the Tamora and then the T350 which I was saving up for all last and this year. Sadly some hefty bills (and other things!) came my way and now I've got to reappraise my budget
I know it's going to be 2-3 yrs before I can afford to buy and run a new/newish performance car so my purchase will be a Griff next spring now (or winter if there's a good discounted bargain to be had).
It's a shame I missed out on such a good summer this year - I'm so envious of you lot! Next year's will probably be crap knowing my luck.
I'm happy to report that the lemons reported thus far haven't dissuaded me from getting one. The other gripes are what I was expecting from any performance car and I'm still not convinced they fully merit TVRs poor reputation.
I am interested though, being a future buyer, how easy it will be to spot any lemon and advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
I've noticed on a few threads unsatisfied owners selling on these so called lemons and not necessarily at too bad a depreciation!
Just how honest are these sellers at detailing the problems and how much more security is there to be gained from buying from a dealer?
thanks
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