Planning for artificial cricket wicket
Discussion
Hi All
Whilst not strictly Homes, Gardens and DIY I could do with some advice/recommendations.
I'm supporting a school that has a chance to get some funding up upgrade their grass cricket to artificial. So swapping 22 yards of grass for 22 yards of astro., to my simple mind seemed daft that this would need planning.
We have been informed by the local planning dept, that we will need planning permission. They have said that if we can provide case law as to why this should be exempt from planning they will consider it.
So I have a couple of questions
a) does such case law exist and where would I find it
b) absent a) can anyone recommend a surveyor or architect in the Peterborough area that could help with what should be a simple project.
I have no experience of planning but I am willing to learn.
TIA
Dave
Whilst not strictly Homes, Gardens and DIY I could do with some advice/recommendations.
I'm supporting a school that has a chance to get some funding up upgrade their grass cricket to artificial. So swapping 22 yards of grass for 22 yards of astro., to my simple mind seemed daft that this would need planning.
We have been informed by the local planning dept, that we will need planning permission. They have said that if we can provide case law as to why this should be exempt from planning they will consider it.
So I have a couple of questions
a) does such case law exist and where would I find it
b) absent a) can anyone recommend a surveyor or architect in the Peterborough area that could help with what should be a simple project.
I have no experience of planning but I am willing to learn.
TIA
Dave
FunkyGibbon said:
Hi All
Whilst not strictly Homes, Gardens and DIY I could do with some advice/recommendations.
I'm supporting a school that has a chance to get some funding up upgrade their grass cricket to artificial. So swapping 22 yards of grass for 22 yards of astro., to my simple mind seemed daft that this would need planning.
We have been informed by the local planning dept, that we will need planning permission. They have said that if we can provide case law as to why this should be exempt from planning they will consider it.
So I have a couple of questions
a) does such case law exist and where would I find it
b) absent a) can anyone recommend a surveyor or architect in the Peterborough area that could help with what should be a simple project.
I have no experience of planning but I am willing to learn.
TIA
Dave
A quick search suggests that they are correct and it will need planning Whilst not strictly Homes, Gardens and DIY I could do with some advice/recommendations.
I'm supporting a school that has a chance to get some funding up upgrade their grass cricket to artificial. So swapping 22 yards of grass for 22 yards of astro., to my simple mind seemed daft that this would need planning.
We have been informed by the local planning dept, that we will need planning permission. They have said that if we can provide case law as to why this should be exempt from planning they will consider it.
So I have a couple of questions
a) does such case law exist and where would I find it
b) absent a) can anyone recommend a surveyor or architect in the Peterborough area that could help with what should be a simple project.
I have no experience of planning but I am willing to learn.
TIA
Dave
https://www.slattersportsconstruction.com/planning...
https://www.ctplanning.co.uk/services/planning-per...
a) No I don't believe it does exist: everything I have seen suggests that it is accepted that the installation of an artificial playing surface falls within the scope of 'development' as defined by the Town and Country Planning Act.
The Government has discussed and rejected a petition to require Planning Permission for artificial grass within the curtilage of dwellings, where the discussion made it clear that the Government considers it to currently fall within the scope of domestic Permitted Development rights for 'hard surfaces'.
There is a specific Permitted Development allowance under Part 7, Class N of the General Permitted Development Order that allows the addition of up to 50m2 area of hard surface within the curtilage of a school, but the actual area of a cricket pitch is 22.56m x 3.66m = 82.56m2, so you are clearly in excess of that threshold.
b) You don't really want a surveyor or architect: you would want a Planning Consultant (and if you want to look for relevant case law, you'll need a Planning Consultant anyway... they would use various online legal/planning resources that are only available by subscription).
The fun bit is that since you will be affecting more than the 5mx5m threshold the Government has just introduced a requirement that all development should result in a net gain in biodiversity.
For you, this will likely mean that you have to spend £2.50 on a packet of wildflower seeds to scatter in a corner of the site, somewhere, plus about two hundred times that amount for a 'competent person' (a qualified Ecologist) to complete the biodiverity calculation spreadsheet that the box-ticking jobsworth in the Local Planning Authority's validation team will insist upon as a mandatory application requirement. There will then be a Planning application fee of £293 (plus £70 for the priviledge of submitting it online via the Planning Portal, because transmitting a few Mb of data is a very expensive and complicated task, obviously), plus the cost of the Planning Consultant themselves, which since there is genuinely several hours work creating and coordinating and submitting the information required, will add a further £few hundred to your costs.
Welcome to the bureaucratic gravy train that is the UK Planning system...
The Government has discussed and rejected a petition to require Planning Permission for artificial grass within the curtilage of dwellings, where the discussion made it clear that the Government considers it to currently fall within the scope of domestic Permitted Development rights for 'hard surfaces'.
There is a specific Permitted Development allowance under Part 7, Class N of the General Permitted Development Order that allows the addition of up to 50m2 area of hard surface within the curtilage of a school, but the actual area of a cricket pitch is 22.56m x 3.66m = 82.56m2, so you are clearly in excess of that threshold.
b) You don't really want a surveyor or architect: you would want a Planning Consultant (and if you want to look for relevant case law, you'll need a Planning Consultant anyway... they would use various online legal/planning resources that are only available by subscription).
The fun bit is that since you will be affecting more than the 5mx5m threshold the Government has just introduced a requirement that all development should result in a net gain in biodiversity.
For you, this will likely mean that you have to spend £2.50 on a packet of wildflower seeds to scatter in a corner of the site, somewhere, plus about two hundred times that amount for a 'competent person' (a qualified Ecologist) to complete the biodiverity calculation spreadsheet that the box-ticking jobsworth in the Local Planning Authority's validation team will insist upon as a mandatory application requirement. There will then be a Planning application fee of £293 (plus £70 for the priviledge of submitting it online via the Planning Portal, because transmitting a few Mb of data is a very expensive and complicated task, obviously), plus the cost of the Planning Consultant themselves, which since there is genuinely several hours work creating and coordinating and submitting the information required, will add a further £few hundred to your costs.
Welcome to the bureaucratic gravy train that is the UK Planning system...
It reads as if the local planning officer doesn't actually know the difference between the pitch and the oval. I'd request a public stoning on grounds of heresy or to f
k off back to America. Then ask again when they have someone civilised in the chair.
To be honest, school pitches should all be artificial today. Not only does it save on labour and fuel but gives the children the best consistency for learning and mastering the sport as well as maximising playing time. Clinging on to traditional ground has nostalgic value when pitching sales to first gen parents but the world has moved on and we want our children outside swinging willow regardless of the weather and conditions and learning on quality surfaces, something few school groundsman can actually deliver anyway.
Does a wicket that's just 22x3 really need planning permission to make it suitable for the 21st century? I can appreciate not wanting the oval converted but as there is zero merit to that how can anyone in the council think that would be what is being applied for?
k off back to America. Then ask again when they have someone civilised in the chair. To be honest, school pitches should all be artificial today. Not only does it save on labour and fuel but gives the children the best consistency for learning and mastering the sport as well as maximising playing time. Clinging on to traditional ground has nostalgic value when pitching sales to first gen parents but the world has moved on and we want our children outside swinging willow regardless of the weather and conditions and learning on quality surfaces, something few school groundsman can actually deliver anyway.
Does a wicket that's just 22x3 really need planning permission to make it suitable for the 21st century? I can appreciate not wanting the oval converted but as there is zero merit to that how can anyone in the council think that would be what is being applied for?
GMT13 said:
Just do it. It wouldn't be expedient for them to take any planning enforcement action. Save yourself a fortune.
And easy enough to pull up if they find it and get shirty...Equus said:
For you, this will likely mean that you have to spend £2.50 on a packet of wildflower seeds to scatter in a corner of the site, somewhere, plus about two hundred times that amount for a 'competent person' (a qualified Ecologist) to complete the biodiverity calculation spreadsheet that the box-ticking jobsworth in the Local Planning Authority's validation team will insist upon as a mandatory application requirement. There will then be a Planning application fee of £293 (plus £70 for the priviledge of submitting it online via the Planning Portal, because transmitting a few Mb of data is a very expensive and complicated task, obviously), plus the cost of the Planning Consultant themselves, which since there is genuinely several hours work creating and coordinating and submitting the information required, will add a further £few hundred to your costs.
And newts and bats! Don't forget the newts and bats! And the Roman villa underneath that needs investigating. And what about the heavy metals?! 
Edited by Simpo Two on Sunday 28th April 22:58
Equus said:
Welcome to the bureaucratic gravy train that is the UK Planning system...
Many thanks for that, very useful. I thought you were taking the pi55 about biodiversity net gain until I googled it.We cannot just do it as the funding for this is in connection with the City Council and planning were involved in the decision to allow us to be awarded thie project.
Thanks for the help.
Simpo Two said:
GMT13 said:
Just do it. It wouldn't be expedient for them to take any planning enforcement action. Save yourself a fortune.
And easy enough to pull up if they find it and get shirty...That said, Equus' interesting post appeared to suggest that a cricket pitch might be exempt due to its small size? Does a cricket pitch legally have to be 10ft wide? And does it need to be when the ground is artificial? You could have an artificial pitch sub 50m2
Edited by DonkeyApple on Monday 29th April 07:55
DonkeyApple said:
That said, Equus' interesting post appeared to suggest that a cricket pitch might be exempt due to its small size?
What give you that impression?As I said, the PD limit for additional 'hard' surfacing for schools is 50m2, but a cricket pitch is 82m2, hence clearly in excess of the threshold.
LINK
If it were in a domestic back garden, there is no limit to the size of artificial/hard surface that can be laid, but domestic PD rights do not apply to schools.
The size of the pitch is governed by national (ECB) and international (ICC) standards.
Edited by Equus on Monday 29th April 08:10
Equus said:
a) No I don't believe it does exist: everything I have seen suggests that it is accepted that the installation of an artificial playing surface falls within the scope of 'development' as defined by the Town and Country Planning Act.
The Government has discussed and rejected a petition to require Planning Permission for artificial grass within the curtilage of dwellings, where the discussion made it clear that the Government considers it to currently fall within the scope of domestic Permitted Development rights for 'hard surfaces'.
There is a specific Permitted Development allowance under Part 7, Class N of the General Permitted Development Order that allows the addition of up to 50m2 area of hard surface within the curtilage of a school, but the actual area of a cricket pitch is 22.56m x 3.66m = 82.56m2, so you are clearly in excess of that threshold.
b) You don't really want a surveyor or architect: you would want a Planning Consultant (and if you want to look for relevant case law, you'll need a Planning Consultant anyway... they would use various online legal/planning resources that are only available by subscription).
The fun bit is that since you will be affecting more than the 5mx5m threshold the Government has just introduced a requirement that all development should result in a net gain in biodiversity.
For you, this will likely mean that you have to spend £2.50 on a packet of wildflower seeds to scatter in a corner of the site, somewhere, plus about two hundred times that amount for a 'competent person' (a qualified Ecologist) to complete the biodiverity calculation spreadsheet that the box-ticking jobsworth in the Local Planning Authority's validation team will insist upon as a mandatory application requirement. There will then be a Planning application fee of £293 (plus £70 for the priviledge of submitting it online via the Planning Portal, because transmitting a few Mb of data is a very expensive and complicated task, obviously), plus the cost of the Planning Consultant themselves, which since there is genuinely several hours work creating and coordinating and submitting the information required, will add a further £few hundred to your costs.
Welcome to the bureaucratic gravy train that is the UK Planning system...
It's mad. One organisation paid for by tax payers, has to pay another organisation paid for by tax payers, for services. Its like a magically money go round. The Government has discussed and rejected a petition to require Planning Permission for artificial grass within the curtilage of dwellings, where the discussion made it clear that the Government considers it to currently fall within the scope of domestic Permitted Development rights for 'hard surfaces'.
There is a specific Permitted Development allowance under Part 7, Class N of the General Permitted Development Order that allows the addition of up to 50m2 area of hard surface within the curtilage of a school, but the actual area of a cricket pitch is 22.56m x 3.66m = 82.56m2, so you are clearly in excess of that threshold.
b) You don't really want a surveyor or architect: you would want a Planning Consultant (and if you want to look for relevant case law, you'll need a Planning Consultant anyway... they would use various online legal/planning resources that are only available by subscription).
The fun bit is that since you will be affecting more than the 5mx5m threshold the Government has just introduced a requirement that all development should result in a net gain in biodiversity.
For you, this will likely mean that you have to spend £2.50 on a packet of wildflower seeds to scatter in a corner of the site, somewhere, plus about two hundred times that amount for a 'competent person' (a qualified Ecologist) to complete the biodiverity calculation spreadsheet that the box-ticking jobsworth in the Local Planning Authority's validation team will insist upon as a mandatory application requirement. There will then be a Planning application fee of £293 (plus £70 for the priviledge of submitting it online via the Planning Portal, because transmitting a few Mb of data is a very expensive and complicated task, obviously), plus the cost of the Planning Consultant themselves, which since there is genuinely several hours work creating and coordinating and submitting the information required, will add a further £few hundred to your costs.
Welcome to the bureaucratic gravy train that is the UK Planning system...
It's even the same council that's charging itself.
Tell you what. The school could offer free use of the cricket nets to any council employee's children who are enrolled in that school, in lieu of payment.
DonkeyApple said:
That said, Equus' interesting post appeared to suggest that a cricket pitch might be exempt due to its small size? Does a cricket pitch legally have to be 10ft wide? And does it need to be when the ground is artificial? You could have an artificial pitch sub 50m2
Distance between the stumps is 20.12m (22yds) and width between the return crease is 2.64m (8'8") = 53.1m2. The crease is actually 3.6m (12') wide so we're now at 72.4m2 without anything behind the stumps so no, there is no chance of it coming under 50m2. Having it change from astro to grass within the width of the crease would be an absolute nightmare to play on if not actually dangerous.Plus, my reading of Equus' last link is that the 50m2 includes ALL hard surfaces within the school cutilage except those that predate 2010. So it's not just the new development that has to be under 50m2.
"N.1 Development is not permitted by Class N if—
(a)the cumulative area of ground covered by a hard surface within the curtilage of the site (other than hard surfaces already existing on 6th April 2010) would exceed 50 square metres"
stemll said:
Plus, my reading of Equus' last link is that the 50m2 includes ALL hard surfaces within the school curtilage except those that predate 2010. So it's not just the new development that has to be under 50m2.
Correct.Whether artificial grass is considered to be a 'hard surface' is another matter*, but if it isn't, then it isn't covered by the PD rules anyway (so would require Planning Permission, whatever).
* The implication of the Government discussion declining to legislate against it for dwellings suggests that they accept that it falls within the PD rules for hard surfaces on dwellings, but I'm not daft enough to believe that Government can be assumed to have taken a properly considered and consistent view on the matter.
Equus said:
DonkeyApple said:
That said, Equus' interesting post appeared to suggest that a cricket pitch might be exempt due to its small size?
What give you that impression?As I said, the PD limit for additional 'hard' surfacing for schools is 50m2, but a cricket pitch is 82m2, hence clearly in excess of the threshold.
LINK
If it were in a domestic back garden, there is no limit to the size of artificial/hard surface that can be laid, but domestic PD rights do not apply to schools.
The size of the pitch is governed by national (ECB) and international (ICC) standards.
Edited by Equus on Monday 29th April 08:10
'That said, Equus' interesting post appeared to suggest that a cricket pitch might be exempt due to its small size? Does a cricket pitch legally have to be 10ft wide? And does it need to be when the ground is artificial? You could have an artificial pitch sub 50m2'
MCC rules don't have to apply to school pitches and are in fact shorter for lower age groups but the width doesn't form part of those criteria. As such, depending on usage you could argue for a sub 50m2 pitch area which would appear to then fit the criteria you mentioned.
DonkeyApple said:
...the width doesn't form part of those criteria. As such, depending on usage you could argue for a sub 50m2 pitch area which would appear to then fit the criteria you mentioned.
Ah, yes... I forgot this is the PistonHeads Homes forum, where people will come up with the most absurdly complicated and contrived strategies, and accept any compromise necessary, just to make it fit PD criteria.My bad.
By rough calculation, you could do it under Permitted Development if you reduced the width from 12 foot to 8 foot. Assuming you can make a convinciing case that astroturf is a 'hard surface', and that no other had surface has been installed at the school since 2010.
It would encourage accurate bowling, I suppose?
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