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Greg_D

4,329 posts

115 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
theaxe said:
Greg_D said:
come on people, follow the money.....

fewer special needs kids = smaller special needs budget

and round and round the merry-go-round go we!!!
Not sure what you're saying here? If many kids don't really need the money then can't that money go to some combination of improved support for those that really do need it, more money for hospitals, deficit reduction or tax reductions. All of which are good things...
that is exactly the point i am making, the government has noticed that more money than necessary is being spent on special needs, so is cutting it as a cost saving measure. I didn't think i had to spell it out that simply. Did you get 'help' at school biggrin

TwigtheWonderkid

6,029 posts

19 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
Puggit said:
I'm in 2 minds about this
Schitzophrenia. Now surely that really is special needs.

mattnunn

4,087 posts

30 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
It's a valid position to take to argue that the state system and the society it administrates should have a hands off approach to supporting poor parenting and restrict it's impact on us all in a wider social context.

But you have to accept teh consequences of this, inevitably if you accept poor parents exist and choose to ignore the problem and deal with the children by way of punishment, ignorance or denial - don't be suprised if the cycle continues.

I'm not fan of an interventionist state in general, but I think the school system is an area when the state can have real positive impact on individuals live and what's more it's a vital role. For well parented middle class kids school on the whole is just a holding pen or waiting room until they're old enough to go onto to uni.

KrazyIvan

2,520 posts

44 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
Greg_D said:
theaxe said:
Greg_D said:
come on people, follow the money.....

fewer special needs kids = smaller special needs budget

and round and round the merry-go-round go we!!!
Not sure what you're saying here? If many kids don't really need the money then can't that money go to some combination of improved support for those that really do need it, more money for hospitals, deficit reduction or tax reductions. All of which are good things...
that is exactly the point i am making, the government has noticed that more money than necessary is being spent on special needs, so is cutting it as a cost saving measure. I didn't think i had to spell it out that simply. Did you get 'help' at school biggrin
That's just it though, on the "entry" level of special needs the schools do not get extra money, however they do get extra allowance for that child in the schools scoring for the league tables.

As I said, too many piss poor parents and teachers hiding behind the "SEN" shield

muffinmenace

633 posts

57 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
Greg_D said:
that is exactly the point i am making, the government has noticed that more money than necessary is being spent on special needs, so is cutting it as a cost saving measure. I didn't think i had to spell it out that simply. Did you get 'help' at school biggrin
No you said it's some sort of race to the bottom, which it's not.
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Greg_D

4,329 posts

115 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
muffinmenace said:
Greg_D said:
that is exactly the point i am making, the government has noticed that more money than necessary is being spent on special needs, so is cutting it as a cost saving measure. I didn't think i had to spell it out that simply. Did you get 'help' at school biggrin
No you said it's some sort of race to the bottom, which it's not.
if that is how you read it, you were wrong...

muffinmenace

633 posts

57 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
Greg_D said:
if that is how you read it, you were wrong...
Looks like I'm not the only one, if only you had more help at school hehe

Twincam16

27,206 posts

127 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
There is another point to be made here.

League tables. Ever since Labour, the be-all and end-all of measurement as to how well a school is doing. If you get some unfeasably large percentage of kids to pass all their exams, your school goes further up the league tables. Doesn't matter what in, which is why Labour dumped the old curriculum with things like compulsory languages, then called it 'elitist' when the Tories suggested returning to it as the EBacc.

However, it's deemed unfair to include kids with SENs into the school's overall exam statistics. As a result, if the kids are statemented (which doesn't need a doctor's note from the family, it can be done via the school), then hey presto, they don't figure in the exam statistics.

Then they can fail everything to their hearts' content regardless of whether they have genuine medical issues or not, and the school can rest assured that the brighter kids will massage the school's average pass rate upwards.

As a result, it's become covertly standard practice (talked about quite freely among the teachers and TAs in the schools I worked in) to get as many kids in the school statemented as possible.

There's also a financial incentive. Get more statemented kids, get more cash to help them with their problems. If those 'problems' aren't genuine, that money will do nicely towards that new computer suite.

It's all a result of Labour's typical 'govern by statistics while making certain subjects 'untouchable' with spin' approach. They shut down so many special schools and PRUs, then created a statistics-based logistical nightmare in their wake in the name of 'inclusion'. In reality it was all about cost-cutting and fiddling statistics, but if you dared to criticise it, you were seen as criticising the disabled.

As a result, we now get badly-behaved kids being poorly-educated both at home and school because for the sake of the school's reputation they've been deemed to be suffering from such made-up conditions as 'opposition defiant disorder' and the often incorrectly-diagnosed ADHD (seeing a kid with genuine ADHD trying to work and comparing them with someone who clearly uses it as an excuse for poor behaviour reveals a wide gulf between them).

We are failing generations of kids mainly because there just isn't enough discipline in society in general, and the school system is so hopelessly biased towards statistics-generation and academic/scientific skills at the expense of practical/technical skills, largely, I suspect, a result of underfunding and sheer ignorance on the part of politicians.

This change is long overdue.

Greg_D

4,329 posts

115 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
muffinmenace said:
Greg_D said:
if that is how you read it, you were wrong...
Looks like I'm not the only one, if only you had more help at school hehe
no, it was just you, honest!!!

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

11,995 posts

38 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
Puggit said:
I'm in 2 minds about this - on the one hand, there is certainly a problem out there with feral children being categorized as SEN to account for their wild behaviour. As per a recent thread, my son has suffered at the hands of an unruly child at school who has nothing wrong with him except a poor upbringing.

On the other hand, my son is also currently being assessed as he is lagging behind at school, despite all our efforts at home to give him that extra little push to help him catch up. He's an August child in a class dominated by girls (19 girls, 5 boys) - and is clearly far behind most of them. Any help would be welcome!
I have an August child and it is a dilemma of ours. We can hold her back so that she is the oldest in her year as opposed to the youngest. I do think this may be a wise course for her but we will wait to see if she shows signs of intelligence. Depends whether she takes after her mother. wink

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

11,995 posts

38 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
12gauge said:
I got through 90% of school without special needs. Then in the last year, the new 'counselor' decided i was dyslexic. Obviously she got a fat cheque every week from the LEA to 'counsel' me. I didn't protest because I got extra time in exams.

It's little more than a scam to enrich already rich education consultant types. Money for old rope.
Dyslexia is something that annoys me.

Firstly it is a gift if the child is bright and only a handicap if they are already thick.

Secondly, it has been used by teachers to excuse failures and shift the blame onto the child and also to get more money.

The education system is another example of the good intentions of supplying financial rewards to solve issues being massively abused and resulting in paying for shot excuses and behaviour.

The sooner the serious issue of SPS (st Parent Syndrome) and STS (st Teacher Syndrome) are formally recognised and dealt with the better for all in society.

bitchstewie

8,765 posts

79 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
So in all seriousness has the definition of special needs changed?

Because I can't imagine that 20% of the kids I went to school with had special needs and were simply undiagnosed, so unless they've been slipping something in the milk that suggests either the definition has changed, or there is some serious misdiagnosis going on.

Murph7355

9,413 posts

125 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
DonkeyApple said:
...

The sooner the serious issue of SPS (st Parent Syndrome) and STS (st Teacher Syndrome) are formally recognised and dealt with the better for all in society.
This. Especially SPS.


OllieC

2,807 posts

83 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
valiant said:
Bloody hell! When I was at school (going back 20 years) you were only special needs if you were actually disabled. Anything else and it was a case of "I'm sorry Mrs Smith but little Johnny is just a bit thick".

Nowadays every body need a fking label.

People need to accept that their daring Jocasta and Oliver might not be able to become doctors and lawyers and may be more suited to collecting shopping trolleys.
Oi !

wink

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

11,995 posts

38 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
bhstewie said:
So in all seriousness has the definition of special needs changed?

Because I can't imagine that 20% of the kids I went to school with had special needs and were simply undiagnosed, so unless they've been slipping something in the milk that suggests either the definition has changed, or there is some serious misdiagnosis going on.
Try a simple experiment:

Ask everyone you know who has kids if their child is retarded. Around a 100% will say no.

Then offer to give them a wad of money to say 'yes' and ask the question again. You'll probably get that 20-30%.

Likewise, go to a group of teachers and inform them that they will have to work harder for the same money for every child they deem to have 'problems' and see what % of their class they specify as needing more of their time.

Then, go to that group and tell them that you will give them a cash bounty for each child they declare as having 'problems' and recheck what that number is.

All very simplistic but if there is good money to be had in declaring a child as having 'learning difficulties' then that is how many will be declared. There is no financial gain in saying a child might be dumb or have crap parents.

Again, a system that was intended to help the kids who genuinely needed help has been abused and distorted due to financial incentivisation etc.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Tuesday 15th May 18:49

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