Policing of pro Palestinian marches
Discussion
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: I'm going to show my ignorance now but is there a simple accepted definition of what a "Zionist" is please?
I hear the term often and it almost always seems intended as a pejorative.
It is a word antisemites use to try to pretend that they are not antisemitic. Zionists support the right of the country of Israel to exist. Antisemites try to conflate them to the actions of the Israeli government. I hear the term often and it almost always seems intended as a pejorative.
As an example in their minds if you say you are British you are responsible for the actions of the Government. So it is your fault people are going to be sent to Rwanda.
Vanden Saab said:
Zionists support the right of the country of Israel to exist.
That falls a long way short of the complete picture.Zionists advocated the creation of the Jewish State of Israel in a way that involved displacing other people and the implementation of an apartheid regime. Zionists continue to advocate expansion of the Jewish State of Israel into the West Bank through violence, displacement and detention without trial, all in contravention of several resolutions of the United Nations.
Panamax said:
That falls a long way short of the complete picture.
Zionists advocated the creation of the Jewish State of Israel in a way that involved displacing other people and the implementation of an apartheid regime. Zionists continue to advocate expansion of the Jewish State of Israel into the West Bank through violence, displacement and detention without trial, all in contravention of several resolutions of the United Nations.
Wrong ,zionism has many different elements ,you reference the most extreme elements .Zionists advocated the creation of the Jewish State of Israel in a way that involved displacing other people and the implementation of an apartheid regime. Zionists continue to advocate expansion of the Jewish State of Israel into the West Bank through violence, displacement and detention without trial, all in contravention of several resolutions of the United Nations.
Vanden Saab said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I'm going to show my ignorance now but is there a simple accepted definition of what a "Zionist" is please?
I hear the term often and it almost always seems intended as a pejorative.
It is a word antisemites use to try to pretend that they are not antisemitic. Zionists support the right of the country of Israel to exist. Antisemites try to conflate them to the actions of the Israeli government. I hear the term often and it almost always seems intended as a pejorative.
As an example in their minds if you say you are British you are responsible for the actions of the Government. So it is your fault people are going to be sent to Rwanda.
There are semites who are not zionists
and presumably zionists defined zionism themselves. and its not the same as Israeli or Jewish.
What’s the right word for someone who agrees with the building of settlements and opposing the right of Palestinians to their own country?
Call me cynical but there’s a group of people who deliberately conflate Israel’s right to exist with the above, the same group of people who conflate any criticism of the Israeli governments support and encouragement of the Settlers with “anti semitism”
Call me cynical but there’s a group of people who deliberately conflate Israel’s right to exist with the above, the same group of people who conflate any criticism of the Israeli governments support and encouragement of the Settlers with “anti semitism”
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Mojooo said:
That is odd given that
There are semites who are not zionists
and presumably zionists defined zionism themselves. and its not the same as Israeli or Jewish.
So what do you mean by "Zionists"?There are semites who are not zionists
and presumably zionists defined zionism themselves. and its not the same as Israeli or Jewish.
That is different from someone who lives in Israel and someone who is Jewish and may or may not live in Israel
What I have an issue with is the Zionists who do what Panamax described above.
The reality is that criticising Zionism is used by some to say you are anti Jewish/anti Semite as a smokescreen or because they somehow think everyone hates Jews.
Mojooo said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Mojooo said:
That is odd given that
There are semites who are not zionists
and presumably zionists defined zionism themselves. and its not the same as Israeli or Jewish.
So what do you mean by "Zionists"?There are semites who are not zionists
and presumably zionists defined zionism themselves. and its not the same as Israeli or Jewish.
That is different from someone who lives in Israel and someone who is Jewish and may or may not live in Israel
What I have an issue with is the Zionists who do what Panamax described above.
The reality is that criticising Zionism is used by some to say you are anti Jewish/anti Semite as a smokescreen or because they somehow think everyone hates Jews.
Vanden Saab said:
You have an issue with everybody who thinks Israel has a right to exist. From the river to the sea. Got it...
I have always wondered why anti-Zionists have such an issue with Jewish people having their own homeland, but seem quite ok with most of the other religions having their own.I'm sure it's nothing.
Mojooo said:
They are people who want a Jewish homeland (Israel)
That is different from someone who lives in Israel and someone who is Jewish and may or may not live in Israel
What I have an issue with is the Zionists who do what Panamax described above.
The reality is that criticising Zionism is used by some to say you are anti Jewish/anti Semite as a smokescreen or because they somehow think everyone hates Jews.
OK so what did "Made the Zionists know the majority of us dislike them." mean?That is different from someone who lives in Israel and someone who is Jewish and may or may not live in Israel
What I have an issue with is the Zionists who do what Panamax described above.
The reality is that criticising Zionism is used by some to say you are anti Jewish/anti Semite as a smokescreen or because they somehow think everyone hates Jews.
You seem to be saying you literally dislike anyone who wants a Jewish homeland.
bodhi said:
I have always wondered why anti-Zionists have such an issue with Jewish people having their own homeland, but seem quite ok with most of the other religions having their own.
I'm sure it's nothing.
As far as I can recall the only other countries doing what Israel is are China and Russia. I’m not aware of any democracies occupying territories they have invaded and persecuting the inhabitants.I'm sure it's nothing.
Countdown said:
bodhi said:
I have always wondered why anti-Zionists have such an issue with Jewish people having their own homeland, but seem quite ok with most of the other religions having their own.
I'm sure it's nothing.
As far as I can recall the only other countries doing what Israel is are China and Russia. I’m not aware of any democracies occupying territories they have invaded and persecuting the inhabitants.I'm sure it's nothing.
it would help if everyone tried to understand other points of view. I wouldn't seek to justify Israel's aggressions, but I suspect one view might be that after the Holocaust and "never again", the Israeli Jews found themselves from the start surrounded by people who hated them. It will take more than the West to underwrite the peace. All the Arab nations would have to commit to protecting a two state solution. On top of natural tensions that would still exist, they'll have to be mitigation from the meddling from Russia and China. Northern Ireland was a walk in the park.
CABC said:
chipping in here...
it would help if everyone tried to understand other points of view. I wouldn't seek to justify Israel's aggressions, but I suspect one view might be that after the Holocaust and "never again", the Israeli Jews found themselves from the start surrounded by people who hated them. It will take more than the West to underwrite the peace. All the Arab nations would have to commit to protecting a two state solution. On top of natural tensions that would still exist, they'll have to be mitigation from the meddling from Russia and China. Northern Ireland was a walk in the park.
Leaving aside the fact that israel could defeat all of the Arab nations combined it HAS peace treaties with almost all of them (Egypt, Jordan, the UAE). AIUI Saudi Arabia has agreed to a formal peace treaty if the issue of Palestinian statehood could be resolved.it would help if everyone tried to understand other points of view. I wouldn't seek to justify Israel's aggressions, but I suspect one view might be that after the Holocaust and "never again", the Israeli Jews found themselves from the start surrounded by people who hated them. It will take more than the West to underwrite the peace. All the Arab nations would have to commit to protecting a two state solution. On top of natural tensions that would still exist, they'll have to be mitigation from the meddling from Russia and China. Northern Ireland was a walk in the park.
The fact of the matter is that Israel wants to keep the occupied territories but without giving the Palestinians any rights. In order to permanently keep them it needs to effectively annex them with Settlements which usually means either restricting movement for the Palestinians (if they're lucky) or kicking them off their farms and land at the point of an M-16 and to make life so awful for them that they'll leave of their own accord.
Countdown said:
AIUI Saudi Arabia has agreed to a formal peace treaty if the issue of Palestinian statehood could be resolved.
it was close, but then Oct 7.Israel need nudging too, no doubt. Voting out Netanyahu at the ballot box would probably help.
Still, why are our "intelligent" students seeing it as so binary is my issue.
Countdown said:
What’s the right word for someone who agrees with the building of settlements and opposing the right of Palestinians to their own country?
Call me cynical but there’s a group of people who deliberately conflate Israel’s right to exist with the above, the same group of people who conflate any criticism of the Israeli governments support and encouragement of the Settlers with “anti semitism”
What own country? A Palestinian state had been proposed several times included in 1948, but rejected. Under Clinton much of West Bank would have been handed over but that was rejected too.Call me cynical but there’s a group of people who deliberately conflate Israel’s right to exist with the above, the same group of people who conflate any criticism of the Israeli governments support and encouragement of the Settlers with “anti semitism”
There are many people without a country Kurds, Tamils, Tibetans,...
Countdown said:
CABC said:
chipping in here...
it would help if everyone tried to understand other points of view. I wouldn't seek to justify Israel's aggressions, but I suspect one view might be that after the Holocaust and "never again", the Israeli Jews found themselves from the start surrounded by people who hated them. It will take more than the West to underwrite the peace. All the Arab nations would have to commit to protecting a two state solution. On top of natural tensions that would still exist, they'll have to be mitigation from the meddling from Russia and China. Northern Ireland was a walk in the park.
Leaving aside the fact that israel could defeat all of the Arab nations combined it HAS peace treaties with almost all of them (Egypt, Jordan, the UAE). AIUI Saudi Arabia has agreed to a formal peace treaty if the issue of Palestinian statehood could be resolved.it would help if everyone tried to understand other points of view. I wouldn't seek to justify Israel's aggressions, but I suspect one view might be that after the Holocaust and "never again", the Israeli Jews found themselves from the start surrounded by people who hated them. It will take more than the West to underwrite the peace. All the Arab nations would have to commit to protecting a two state solution. On top of natural tensions that would still exist, they'll have to be mitigation from the meddling from Russia and China. Northern Ireland was a walk in the park.
The fact of the matter is that Israel wants to keep the occupied territories but without giving the Palestinians any rights. In order to permanently keep them it needs to effectively annex them with Settlements which usually means either restricting movement for the Palestinians (if they're lucky) or kicking them off their farms and land at the point of an M-16 and to make life so awful for them that they'll leave of their own accord.
Again repeating myself but West Bank was offered to the Palestinians and Gaza was run by them.
Countdown said:
What’s the right word for someone who agrees with the building of settlements and opposing the right of Palestinians to their own country?
Call me cynical but there’s a group of people who deliberately conflate Israel’s right to exist with the above, the same group of people who conflate any criticism of the Israeli governments support and encouragement of the Settlers with “anti semitism”
Thieving b*stards with NIMBY inclinations ?Call me cynical but there’s a group of people who deliberately conflate Israel’s right to exist with the above, the same group of people who conflate any criticism of the Israeli governments support and encouragement of the Settlers with “anti semitism”
Oliver Hardy said:
What own country? A Palestinian state had been proposed several times included in 1948, but rejected. Under Clinton much of West Bank would have been handed over but that was rejected too.
If you know anything about Israel's history you'll know that there were so many conditions imposed on any proposed Palestinian state so as to make any offer meaningless. Netanyahu has openly admitted that he's been doing everything possible to stop the creation of a Palestinian stateOliver Hardy said:
There are many people without a country Kurds, Tamils, Tibetans,...
Ah well, that makes it ok then.....Oliver Hardy said:
Yet it is Ok for Kuwait to have kicked out th Palestinians and Jordan to with draw citizenship that is OK
Absolutely fine. The Palestinians were never residents of Kuwait, they were on work permits. And in Jordan they were refugees. Comparing them to Palestinians living in the West Bank or Gaza is stupid.Oliver Hardy said:
Again repeating myself but West Bank was offered to the Palestinians and Gaza was run by them.
I don't want to be rude but you literally don't seem to know anything about the governance situations in either Gaza or the West BankCountdown said:
Oliver Hardy said:
What own country? A Palestinian state had been proposed several times included in 1948, but rejected. Under Clinton much of West Bank would have been handed over but that was rejected too.
If you know anything about Israel's history you'll know that there were so many conditions imposed on any proposed Palestinian state so as to make any offer meaningless. Netanyahu has openly admitted that he's been doing everything possible to stop the creation of a Palestinian stateOliver Hardy said:
There are many people without a country Kurds, Tamils, Tibetans,...
Ah well, that makes it ok then.....Oliver Hardy said:
Yet it is Ok for Kuwait to have kicked out th Palestinians and Jordan to with draw citizenship that is OK
Absolutely fine. The Palestinians were never residents of Kuwait, they were on work permits. And in Jordan they were refugees. Comparing them to Palestinians living in the West Bank or Gaza is stupid.Oliver Hardy said:
Again repeating myself but West Bank was offered to the Palestinians and Gaza was run by them.
I don't want to be rude but you literally don't seem to know anything about the governance situations in either Gaza or the West BankAnd West Bank used to be part of Joran and region of Palestine was marked on the map it included all of Jorden, seems your the stupid one., and yes some of the Palestinians were on work permits in Kuwait other were not
Please enlighten me on the conditions imposed o9n a Palestinian state
What about the Jews who were displaced from Muslim lands?
Countdown said:
Oliver Hardy said:
What own country? A Palestinian state had been proposed several times included in 1948, but rejected. Under Clinton much of West Bank would have been handed over but that was rejected too.
If you know anything about Israel's history you'll know that there were so many conditions imposed on any proposed Palestinian state so as to make any offer meaningless. Netanyahu has openly admitted that he's been doing everything possible to stop the creation of a Palestinian stateOliver Hardy said:
There are many people without a country Kurds, Tamils, Tibetans,...
Ah well, that makes it ok then.....Oliver Hardy said:
Yet it is Ok for Kuwait to have kicked out th Palestinians and Jordan to with draw citizenship that is OK
Absolutely fine. The Palestinians were never residents of Kuwait, they were on work permits. And in Jordan they were refugees. Comparing them to Palestinians living in the West Bank or Gaza is stupid.Oliver Hardy said:
Again repeating myself but West Bank was offered to the Palestinians and Gaza was run by them.
I don't want to be rude but you literally don't seem to know anything about the governance situations in either Gaza or the West BankThat said a state is a state. That is what presented to Arafat and he put conditions on it. Like access to west Jerusalem. Fine. That’s his decision but don’t pretend the Israelis are occupying colonialists.
The treatment of Palestinians by Arabs is significant: cf Egypt. But I don’t see marches outside the Egyptian embassy every weekend despite the fact that Egypt is largely responsibly for the mess in Gaza. They invaded and then refused to take responsibility for the inhabitants. And strangely have closed off the frontier. How very Ummah of them.
Casting Netanyahu as the source of problems here is idiotic. This has been a problem for Israel for literally decades. Netanyahu’s solution to prevent a coalesced Palestinian state is, from his point of view, the logical outcome as the Palestinians keep on electing terrorists when they eventually indulge in democracy.
I don’t want to be rude but your eyepatch is making you hilariously one eyed about the actual reality of the situation.
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