Private schools, times a changing?

Yes, I'll admit some of my points have been repetitive. There's a reason. They're honest. There are a limited number of ways to say the same thing. But I keep reading people talking ste. As per usual I'll back off this thread for a bit, I've done so repeatedly, but if it's still on the go in a few days I'll probably be back with the cheesejunkie show as you call it.

It's not tired and weak to think that many of the defenders of others paying VAT have a plank in their own eye.

Turbo accusing all teachers of being commies is comedy gold but doesn't get anyone worked up. Questioning VAT exemptions gets a pile on. On a public internet forum. For what it's worth I'm against academic selection too but I'm a realist and know it isn't going away. There is a difference between supporting systemic unfairness and dealing with the reality that it exists. Some have had their reality questioned, there's no VAT on private education yet, there's a possibility there might never be, but boy does it have some annoyed at the thought of it.

No, repeatedly being a tin-eared annoyance gets you the 'pile on' (hyperbole BTW - you haven't been piled on, stop with the pearl-clutching).

What? Seriously? A cursory Google shows that educational standards in Wales and Scotland are plummeting. The Times article dated 9th March has the headline "Why Scottish and Welsh schools are lagging behind the English" (it's paywalled).

One could make a similar point about healthcare and probably other public services. Meanwhile, Starmer's Labour party is proposing a change that will decrease standards in state schools. Well, that's left leaning ideology for you, as they say in Edinburgh and Cardiff.

In the 40s and 50s bright children of any class, monetary background etc could be selected on their brains and go to a grammar school and get a great education

nowadays the selection criteria for an amazing education is purely money- either privately or by buying a house nest to a great school.

Our preference would have been to send our daughter to an amazing grammar school

Alternatively change the approach to something that works better,as there aren't enough unicorns to staff the current system and make a success of it for all children of all abilities.

As to grammar schools, there's plenty of research out there claiming to show no net benefit from selection, however, they're mostly if not all based on modelling of some kind where the modellers make changes and / or correct for variables they can't control. There's one pivotal study from iirc Northern Ireland where local politicians simply expanded the number of selective places available, and it actually happened i.e. not modelled. That was the sum of the changes. The results over time showed overall net benefit in the education system, i.e. outside the selective system as well as within it, also benefit to university entrance. Naturally it didn't go down well. I'll see if I can dig it out.

Maybe not but the fact that the fkwits have even raised the idea will already be causing both schools and parents to take decisions.

Once taken (especially in the case of parents) they are unlikely to be reversed.

TLDR: Damage is already being done.

This has all become exceptionally dull.

That's not surprising, over time Northern Ireland has amassed an adult population with the lowest proportion of citizens who attended a private school at any time as a child, one-third of the UK average and one-quarter of the proportion in London which is a surprising (to me) 33%.

As a follow-up to the comment I made above on research, it's clear there's a majority of papers claiming to show no net benefit (or worse) from selection, yet one paper I know of which exists that investigated a unique situation where selective education was expanded and direct comparisons could be made without modelling, showed a net benefit. It was a unique situation which afforded the opportunity for a 'natural experiment'. My description above from memory appears to be correct, and I think I've found it, but not the full paper which I have on file (somewhere). A pdf summary of the paper from McMaurin and McNally is here

Naturally it can't be held as a certainty that the above peper's results would be replicated elsewhere if a similar change was made, the situation was unique. Equally there's no obvious basis for expecting a different result. I'll keep looking for a paper from NIERC around the same date which looked at the same event (expanded entry to grammars) and found the same results, with university admission also. Based on the evidence provided it would be a good move to expand places available in selective education and admit a wider group to grammar schools, though it may well lead to a lowering of numbers in independent schools.

I'm a product of that system and many on here think I'm an idiot.

I jest.

From my limited knowledge NI achieves many of the best exam results but also achieves many of the worst. It's a good place to be if you're top tier but not a good place to be if you aren't.

It's artificial to think it's not about money. There are many attempts by some to preserve academic selection by having those that can afford to pay for it pay for it (AQE). They even managed to make it sectarian by removing the 11 plus result and have separate tests for different schools. They're no model of what's best.

I don't support the 11 plus but I sure as st stinks don't support those pretending academic selection is a fair system. It can be gamed.

I've missed those comments. Some people disagree with your viewpoint, that sort of thing happens.