|
kambites
32,837 posts
90 months
|
rhinochopig said: Not true IMO. One of the primary drivers now is emissions control - hence multi-cats, etc.- so modern exhausts are far from being optimised. Well they are optimised, just often not for power. Still, I've never seen an after-market exhaust make a significant difference on a modern car, personally; at least not to outright power.
|
|
|
chevy-stu
4,721 posts
97 months
|
Ozzie Osmond said: Modern exhausts are carefully developed by the car manufacturer to work efficiently. Most supposed add-on "sports" exhausts are not as efficient as OE. In other words, you sound louder but go slower or suffer increased fuel consumption. Sticking a bigger pipe on your car guarantees nothing. Modern cars are such a compromise of design specs, but I agree some cars probably have very efficient standard exhausts compared to others. Many cars though will benefit either from a shift in torque band, to a small increase in power from a freer breathing less restrictive design... usually at the expense of noise..... 
|
|
|
Mr2Mike
9,420 posts
124 months
|
Watchman said: Scavenging is not a function of back-pressure. It's to do with the harmonics created. Also where branches of the manifold meet, you're aiming for the harmonics at those intersections to assist with exhaust velocity, so that the pulse of the exhaust exiting through one branch creates a negative pressure directly in front of the pulse of exhaust coming down another.
I often read about how altering the back pressure (usually positively - i.e. reducing it) can have an adverse affect on a car when the opposite is true. Scavenging efficiency will be reduced by back pressure, irrespective of pulse tuning. You also lose power through extra pumping losses. Reducing back pressure without making any other changes can have an adverse effect on an engine, especially carburettored or early EFI ones that are unable to adapt to the changed fueling requirements.
|
|
|
Mr2Mike
9,420 posts
124 months
|
Ozzie Osmond said: Modern exhausts are carefully developed by the car manufacturer to work efficiently. They are designed to meet a tight cost target whilst being durable enough to last out a warranty period and allow the car to pass the sound levels tests required for type approval. They are very, very rarely the best in terms of breathing efficiency. Ozzie Osmond said: Most supposed add-on "sports" exhausts are not as efficient as OE. In other words, you sound louder but go slower or suffer increased fuel consumption. Sticking a bigger pipe on your car guarantees nothing. "Bigger" does not mean "efficient" certainly, and as always a change in the engines breathing should always be followed by optimising the fueling and ignition timing (and quite possibly even valve timing) to make the best of it. Simply fitting a free flowing exhaust onto an engine that previously had a restrictive one is not likely to yield benefits without further work.
|
|
|
300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
|
kambites said: busta said: I though for optimal power, individual tuned straight runners from each exhaust port give the best results, similar to tuned ITBs on the intake side? I don't think that's necessarily true because with a manifold you can use the velocity of the exhaust gas from the previous cylinder's combustion to generate negative back-pressure (no idea if that's the right term) to help suck exhaust gasses out of the cylinder, and indeed help suck air in if you have overlapped valves. I don't know whether that works in practice, though? Yep that's it exactly. But only n/a motors. Good exhaust tuning can introduce another cycle into the combustion process. With forced induction setups the intake charge is already under greater than atmosphere pressure, so you get no gain from scavenging. Which then makes it all about flow rate.
|
Advertisement
|
|
|
300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
|
Ozzie Osmond said: Modern exhausts are carefully developed by the car manufacturer to work efficiently. Most supposed add-on "sports" exhausts are not as efficient as OE. In other words, you sound louder but go slower or suffer increased fuel consumption. Sticking a bigger pipe on your car guarantees nothing. Hi Ozzie. Afraid I'd pretty much disagree with this completely. Standard exhausts are always a compromise and are usually designed to meet/exceed drive by noise regs, not maximise performance and efficiency. The symptoms you describe are a perfect example of the a/f ratio being altered by reducing back pressure and not re-tuning for it. Hence the urban myth about back pressure.
|
|
|
300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
|
kambites said: Still, I've never seen an after-market exhaust make a significant difference on a modern car, personally; at least not to outright power. I think this depends on 2 key points. 1. What car 2. What do you mean by exhaust If taking point 2, a person means a back box or a cat back. Then no, you'll not see massive gains. If by 'exhaust' you mean fitting a tubular manifold (optimised for exhaust scavenging on a na car), free flowing cat back, high flow metal matrix cats and suitable bore sizing and suitable tuning. Then ANY car will see significant gains. Taking point 1. If the car you are tuning makes relatively low HP, even fairly large percentage changes will still yield small actual HP gains. e.g. a 3-5% gain from a 143hp motor is still not a lot of HP gained. But 3-5% gained on a 325hp motor suddenly are much larger gains. Indeed there are many dyno tests of LS1 V8 cars gaining in the region of 20rwhp with the addition of long tube exhaust headers. Total exhaust tuning on these engines can yield 30-40rwhp total gains over stock. In percentage and raw HP terms I'd say that's fairly significant.
|
|
|
kambites
32,837 posts
90 months
|
300bhp/ton said: If taking point 2, a person means a back box or a cat back. Then no, you'll not see massive gains. If by 'exhaust' you mean fitting a tubular manifold (optimised for exhaust scavenging on a na car), free flowing cat back, high flow metal matrix cats and suitable bore sizing and suitable tuning. Then ANY car will see significant gains. I mean everything behind the manifold, since that's what usually changed in the kinds of cars that I'm interested in. 
|
|
|
Captain Muppet
5,886 posts
134 months
|
300bhp/ton said: Hence the urban myth about back pressure. The thing I love about "NA engines need backpressure" is that race cars, like F1, have enough pipework for pulse tuning and nothing else. Either F1 cars would be faster with a silencer or pumping loses are always bad.
|
|
|
kambites
32,837 posts
90 months
|
Oddly though, if you stick a high-flow cat on an Elise 111S, peak power does appear to drop marginally.
Haven't a clue why - people say it's something to do with the VVC mechanism, but I can't imagine what that would have to do with it.
|
|
|
Mr2Mike
9,420 posts
124 months
|
kambites said: Oddly though, if you stick a high-flow cat on an Elise 111S, peak power does appear to drop marginally.
Haven't a clue why - people say it's something to do with the VVC mechanism, but I can't imagine what that would have to do with it. Is that after remapping the ECU to optimise fueling and ignition for the new exhaust?
|
|
|
kambites
32,837 posts
90 months
|
Mr2Mike said: kambites said: Oddly though, if you stick a high-flow cat on an Elise 111S, peak power does appear to drop marginally.
Haven't a clue why - people say it's something to do with the VVC mechanism, but I can't imagine what that would have to do with it. Is that after remapping the ECU to optimise fueling and ignition for the new exhaust? Yes, apparently so (not tried it myself, but there are lots of threads on the various owners clubs forums about it). Even on the standard ECU, I would have thought you'd expect it to at worst do nothing, rather than make it worse.
|
|
|
300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
|
kambites said: Oddly though, if you stick a high-flow cat on an Elise 111S, peak power does appear to drop marginally.
Haven't a clue why - people say it's something to do with the VVC mechanism, but I can't imagine what that would have to do with it. I can see two logical explanations. 1. Not all high flow cats are created equal. I think David Vizard suggest 2.2cfm per 1hp for a resistance free exhaust system. Almost all ceramic core cats, even high performance ones will fail to attain this at higher hp levels. I also suspect many are not 3" inlet/outlet and core dimensions. 2. A cat will affect the exhaust pressure wave. This is a very hard thing to tune (imo) and usually way beyond the amateur or enthusiast (and certainly me!!) to resolve without expert intervention.
|
|
|
moreflaps
502 posts
24 months
|
kambites said: It just refers to how much the system restricts the flow of exhaust gasses.
Obviously the more restricted it is, the more exhaust gasses remain in the cylinder after each stroke, the less air enters the cylinder on the intake stroke, the less fuel can be burnt; which reduces power. I assume modern cars will automatically adjust the fueling based on the data it's seeing from the sensors in the exhaust will tell it how complete combustion has been, in which case anything that reduces back pressure will increase power to some extent.
Not entirely true as the restriction in a pipe can be used to tune the system so that pressures in the exhaust manifold can be lowered at some RPM... in a nutshell thats how tuned exhausts work see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuned_exhaustCheers
|
|
|
300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
|
moreflaps said: kambites said: It just refers to how much the system restricts the flow of exhaust gasses.
Obviously the more restricted it is, the more exhaust gasses remain in the cylinder after each stroke, the less air enters the cylinder on the intake stroke, the less fuel can be burnt; which reduces power. I assume modern cars will automatically adjust the fueling based on the data it's seeing from the sensors in the exhaust will tell it how complete combustion has been, in which case anything that reduces back pressure will increase power to some extent.
Not entirely true as the restriction in a pipe can be used to tune the system so that pressures in the exhaust manifold can be lowered at some RPM... in a nutshell thats how tuned exhausts work see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuned_exhaustCheers Yes, this touches on the exhaust pressure wave I mentioned above. I think David Vizard also suggest the use of a resonance chamber in some of his designs to allow tuning of the wave.
|
|
|
kambites
32,837 posts
90 months
|
So the gist of it seems to be that it's extremely complicated and that it will be a complete fluke whether any modifications to your exhaust system happen to make it better or worse. 
|
|
|
300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
|
kambites said: So the gist of it seems to be that it's extremely complicated and that it will be a complete fluke whether any modifications to your exhaust system happen to make it better or worse.  lol Nah it's easy to make gains. To make the most gains and the most efficient setup is the difficult part. Breather mods on my brothers VVC MGF made a world of difference. We never had it dyno'd, but it self SOTP significantly quicker, revved freer, drove better and certainly performed better against other cars. And this was without optimising the tune either.
|
|
|
Mr2Mike
9,420 posts
124 months
|
moreflaps said: Not entirely true as the restriction in a pipe can be used to tune the system so that pressures in the exhaust manifold can be lowered at some RPM... in a nutshell thats how tuned exhausts work see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuned_exhaustCheers You don't use a restriction for pulse tuning a 4-stroke engine, this is determined by the manifold design; the lengths of the individual pipes and the way they are joined together so that pulses from other cylinders can be used. Back pressure is typically caused by catalytic converters and baffled silencers and they are not normally involved in pulse tuning since they come after the manifold where this effect is exploited. 300bhp/ton said: We never had it dyno'd, but it self SOTP significantly quicker, Sex Offender Treatment Programme?
|
|
|
Captain Muppet
5,886 posts
134 months
|
In relation to why, even after a remap, a "less restrictive" system might give lower power - if you reduce the back pressure, you reduce the pressure in the primary pipe, changing the resonant frequency of the tuning effect.
The resonant frequency is dependant on diamter, length and air density (good luck doing some quick hand calcs on the average density of a pulse of gas cooling from 950 degrees down a few feet of pipe, but it'll change a bit with backpressure).
|
|
|
kambites
32,837 posts
90 months
|
In my experience, inlet changes tend to have more effect than exhaust ones. They're also much simpler because it's a shorter system and there is no variation in the input gas pressure.
|
|