RE: 2024 Porsche Taycan Turbo GT | PH Review
Discussion
J4CKO said:
Betmax is Diesel, Petrol is VHS, both will be long dead like every VCR, both formats died as nobody records on tape any more, its all solid state and streaming, which is where EV's come in. So its a daft analogy saying EVs are the VCR format that died and went away, the winner is long dead as well !
Remember where streaming was a bit crap, laggy, slow and a poor resolution and the bandwidth wasnt really up to it ? thats where EV's are now with the bandwidth and picture being range and charging.
Just this week I was thinking about smart watches in a similar way, when the apple watch came out and most people said why do I need a watch to make phone calls from, or get my texts. Battery only lasts a day or 2, it's expensive,it's just silly, I'll stick to my Casio thanks. (I was in that group too)Remember where streaming was a bit crap, laggy, slow and a poor resolution and the bandwidth wasnt really up to it ? thats where EV's are now with the bandwidth and picture being range and charging.
Well I was in a training course this week, 45 people in the room, I reckon at least 35-40 of them were wearing smart watches. Those that weren't didn't actually wear a watch at all...
Exactly the same with mobile phones, then camera phones, then smart phones, then tablets...
Technology will advance, BEV will get cheaper, drive further, charge quicker and become everyday life.
Nomme de Plum said:
Kawasicki said:
Nomme de Plum said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I was driving a 2.9 Sierra XR4x4 back in 1995, and that weighed 1275kg. So I'm happy to go back to those times in fairness. Cars have definitely ended up getting very heavy in the intervening years that is for sure.
Well over 4,000 deaths per annum back then. Cars are much safer now.People expect creature comfort and features that's why most don't buy an MX5, it simply isn't practicable.
Not withstanding it's gone up about 10% in weight.
Pierre-kma6q said:
I suppose what I meant, at the risk of falling into stereotypes, is that EV’s, including high end EV’s, seem to attract drivers who are not into cars in the sense that they would have been drooling over cars in previous decades. Instead they appear to attract people who are in technology and are materially comfortable enough to make a disruptive statement. And I do witness, but maybe I am biased, that EV drivers are especially clueless at the wheel which is why I worry that a car with the ability to accumulate such an incredible amount of kinetic energy in a handful of seconds with no skills whatsoever becomes a liability once that kinetic energy becomes excessive on account of the necessity to get rid of it just as rapidly due to a turn or a an obstacle ahead.
Kinetic energy is one aspect, loss of control is another.What EV powertrains have in their favour is that the use of a motor allows torque at the wheels to be controlled precisely, and for the higher powered cars, distributed to all 4 wheels.
ICE powertrains have a quirk that the multi-speed gearbox allows the driver to deploy full power in first and second gear, when in fact it is probably unnecessary to do so to accelerate the car.
You mentioned kinetic energy, acceleration is essentially the addition of kinetic energy where the power required to accelerate at a fixed g increases linearly with road speed, due the the formula for kinetic energy being proportional to the square of speed.
At zero speed it requires zero power to accelerate, just a certain amount of wheel torque.
At 60 mph it requires twice the power to accelerate as what 30 mph requires, for the same g.
If the powertrain dishes out the power by applying a fixed value of wheel torque, with the power climbing linearly as the road speed rises, then the acceleration is constant (until drag becomes relevant, but well above UK speed limits).
This is exactly how the majority of EV powertrains work, and is why they are so good at accelerating.
For high powered ICEs, particularly 2WD cars, there is often too much power at low road speeds available for the driver to be able to deploy, leading to wheel torque spiking at high rpm in low gears.
At full throttle, the traction and stability control often kicks in, but what you can't avoid is the build-up of rotating inertia in the engine and transmission at high rpms, and then the sudden torque discontinuity at the gear change.
These torque spikes and discontinuities are what unsettles the car during acceleration, and if the grip levels are low (rain, worn tyres, 2WD, etc.) then the electronics (or driver) can struggle to keep it all in check.
This is, by and large, avoided by the EV powertrain due to having a single ratio and applying a fixed motor/wheel torque regime up to motorway speeds.
P.S. I'm aware the Taycan has a 2-speed box...
The discussion was/is pretty mature. Then you came around ds666 said:
pheonix478 said:
ds666 said:
You wouldn’t like the throttle response and instantaneous pick up of an ev in a sportscar ?
Yes and no. If I'm driving purely for fun I want as much involvement as possible. An engine that rewards you wringing its neck and punishes you if you don't. Obviously if you're on it, it needs to respond but if a lumpy old fixed cam and multiple carbs makes it a pig to drive slowly without stalling that's just fine and fun to master... equally if there's no turbo at all until you hit 4000 and then all hell breaks loose even better. Not for everyone I know but then take something modern like a 458 and the throttle response is pretty damn instant and idiot proof everywhere. Leon R said:
You couldn’t in the MK1 either so that point is irrelevant.
My point is a toy car like my S1 Elan and S1 Exige or the Mazda Mx5 is not remotely representative of a family car. They have become bigger and heavier due to consumers demand for stuff and safety features to keep 4/5 people intact in an accident. The Mazda is only a 4 anyway so well below what many family cars offer now. pheonix478 said:
ds666 said:
pheonix478 said:
ds666 said:
You wouldn’t like the throttle response and instantaneous pick up of an ev in a sportscar ?
Yes and no. If I'm driving purely for fun I want as much involvement as possible. An engine that rewards you wringing its neck and punishes you if you don't. Obviously if you're on it, it needs to respond but if a lumpy old fixed cam and multiple carbs makes it a pig to drive slowly without stalling that's just fine and fun to master... equally if there's no turbo at all until you hit 4000 and then all hell breaks loose even better. Not for everyone I know but then take something modern like a 458 and the throttle response is pretty damn instant and idiot proof everywhere. Nomme de Plum said:
My point is a toy car like my S1 Elan and S1 Exige or the Mazda Mx5 is not remotely representative of a family car. They have become bigger and heavier due to consumers demand for stuff and safety features to keep 4/5 people intact in an accident. The Mazda is only a 4 anyway so well below what many family cars offer now.
And your point remains irrelevant.MK1 MX5 designed as a 2 seater sports car.
MK4 MX5 designed as a 2 seater sports car.
Weight increase of 10% even though it has all the mod cons and safety features required of a modern car.
Nomme de Plum said:
cerb4.5lee said:
D4rez said:
I think the 718 EV replacement will be more of a yardstick for what a really exciting EV can be… no far off now
I have to say that I am a little bit intrigued by an EV sports car, and I wonder how they will compare to an ICE sports car. Obviously they will be heavier than the ICE version, plus I think personally I'd miss the exhaust/engine noise too. However I am interested in seeing how they will review in magazines etc though. Porsche we need to make a decision. The mid engined layout of the Cayman was at risk of usurping the 911 so early versions of that and the Boxter were deliberately underpowered.
TX.
incredible machine, styling isn't offensive and will be built like a fine watch...
rediculous amounts of power from the factory, will outperform many, may cars.
And yet I couldn't be less interested in one.
Maybe I'll love the whole EV thing when they don't have such a weight penalty.
I ciould even get over the whole lack of sound/mechanics (a little)
rediculous amounts of power from the factory, will outperform many, may cars.
And yet I couldn't be less interested in one.
Maybe I'll love the whole EV thing when they don't have such a weight penalty.
I ciould even get over the whole lack of sound/mechanics (a little)
thejaywills said:
incredible machine, styling isn't offensive and will be built like a fine watch...
rediculous amounts of power from the factory, will outperform many, may cars.
And yet I couldn't be less interested in one.
Maybe I'll love the whole EV thing when they don't have such a weight penalty.
I ciould even get over the whole lack of sound/mechanics (a little)
I understand. Even though in it's class the weight difference isn't that big. Relatively the weight difference is higher wit smaller/lighter cars. But that will become smaller. I think, in the class of B/C segment, when a weight reduction of 33% is attained the weight will be close to an ICE equivalent but with a lower COG the difference will be negligable in terms of effect. And by that time there will be more options for fun EV's that are geared toward those who drive a car just for fun.rediculous amounts of power from the factory, will outperform many, may cars.
And yet I couldn't be less interested in one.
Maybe I'll love the whole EV thing when they don't have such a weight penalty.
I ciould even get over the whole lack of sound/mechanics (a little)
Edited by _ppan on Friday 12th April 09:26
Terminator X said:
They only sound bad because of the Regs + getting more onerous every year. Eventually it will be zero and there will no sound from any car. Will you be happy then?
TX.
Perhaps you could post those year on year regulation changes to evidence your assertion. TX.
Alternatively. Periodically and as the evidence mounts and conclusions become more clear car engine emissions are legislated to be reduced.
I think anyone who lives in a town or maybe on a busy road would like traffic noise to be reduced to a point that it is no longer intrusive.
Pierre-kma6q said:
I suppose what I meant, at the risk of falling into stereotypes, is that EV’s, including high end EV’s, seem to attract drivers who are not into cars in the sense that they would have been drooling over cars in previous decades. Instead they appear to attract people who are in technology and are materially comfortable enough to make a disruptive statement. And I do witness, but maybe I am biased, that EV drivers are especially clueless at the wheel which is why I worry that a car with the ability to accumulate such an incredible amount of kinetic energy in a handful of seconds with no skills whatsoever becomes a liability once that kinetic energy becomes excessive on account of the necessity to get rid of it just as rapidly due to a turn or a an obstacle ahead.
You really are falling into stereotypes yes.Plenty of us enthusiasts (no longer petrolheads I suppose) in between adjusting the suspension on our track cars, or practicing to get those last few 1/10ths on the SIM also enjoy the handling and powertrain delivery of our EVs.
There are more than enough clueless drivers in ICE cars you know?
Nomme de Plum said:
Terminator X said:
They only sound bad because of the Regs + getting more onerous every year. Eventually it will be zero and there will no sound from any car. Will you be happy then?
TX.
Perhaps you could post those year on year regulation changes to evidence your assertion. TX.
Alternatively. Periodically and as the evidence mounts and conclusions become more clear car engine emissions are legislated to be reduced.
I think anyone who lives in a town or maybe on a busy road would like traffic noise to be reduced to a point that it is no longer intrusive.
The relevant legislation is EH 540/2014 and it’s already brought drive by noise down to 74DB with a 6DB reduction to 68DB planned by 2026. It’s now part of the type approval process for aftermarket too. UK follows EU type approval so the same applies. Very difficult to control the level of true mechanical noise and make it sound good hence the good old enginenoisewithpopbang.wav approach
D4rez said:
Nomme de Plum said:
Terminator X said:
They only sound bad because of the Regs + getting more onerous every year. Eventually it will be zero and there will no sound from any car. Will you be happy then?
TX.
Perhaps you could post those year on year regulation changes to evidence your assertion. TX.
Alternatively. Periodically and as the evidence mounts and conclusions become more clear car engine emissions are legislated to be reduced.
I think anyone who lives in a town or maybe on a busy road would like traffic noise to be reduced to a point that it is no longer intrusive.
The relevant legislation is EH 540/2014 and it’s already brought drive by noise down to 74DB with a 6DB reduction to 68DB planned by 2026. It’s now part of the type approval process for aftermarket too. UK follows EU type approval so the same applies. Very difficult to control the level of true mechanical noise and make it sound good hence the good old enginenoisewithpopbang.wav approach
D4rez said:
Nomme de Plum said:
Terminator X said:
They only sound bad because of the Regs + getting more onerous every year. Eventually it will be zero and there will no sound from any car. Will you be happy then?
TX.
Perhaps you could post those year on year regulation changes to evidence your assertion. TX.
Alternatively. Periodically and as the evidence mounts and conclusions become more clear car engine emissions are legislated to be reduced.
I think anyone who lives in a town or maybe on a busy road would like traffic noise to be reduced to a point that it is no longer intrusive.
The relevant legislation is EH 540/2014 and it’s already brought drive by noise down to 74DB with a 6DB reduction to 68DB planned by 2026. It’s now part of the type approval process for aftermarket too. UK follows EU type approval so the same applies. Very difficult to control the level of true mechanical noise and make it sound good hence the good old enginenoisewithpopbang.wav approach
My point was there is not new legislation every year covering the issue of noise and or emissions. There are periodic changes.
Presumably EVs will largely eradicate the noise issue anyway.
cerb4.5lee said:
EVs might be silent engine/exhaust wise for sure, but tyre roar is still a big thing in either an ICE or an EV though I think.
Tyre noise is not really such an issue in speed limited built up areas with 20/30/40mph speed limits but yes as other, engine, noise is eradicated then what's left is bound to be noticed. Tyre design will evolve to reduce particulates and maybe noise will be a consideration as well.
Nomme de Plum said:
D4rez said:
Nomme de Plum said:
Terminator X said:
They only sound bad because of the Regs + getting more onerous every year. Eventually it will be zero and there will no sound from any car. Will you be happy then?
TX.
Perhaps you could post those year on year regulation changes to evidence your assertion. TX.
Alternatively. Periodically and as the evidence mounts and conclusions become more clear car engine emissions are legislated to be reduced.
I think anyone who lives in a town or maybe on a busy road would like traffic noise to be reduced to a point that it is no longer intrusive.
The relevant legislation is EH 540/2014 and it’s already brought drive by noise down to 74DB with a 6DB reduction to 68DB planned by 2026. It’s now part of the type approval process for aftermarket too. UK follows EU type approval so the same applies. Very difficult to control the level of true mechanical noise and make it sound good hence the good old enginenoisewithpopbang.wav approach
My point was there is not new legislation every year covering the issue of noise and or emissions. There are periodic changes.
Presumably EVs will largely eradicate the noise issue anyway.
Fair point - people going on about the noise missing from EV's and yet we all moan about cars popping and banging round Sainsbury's carpark .
The good thing about NVH in EV cars is that you have fewer sources of sound to deal with and therefore can focus more .
I don't think I've ever experienced a car as quiet inside as the Taycan - the I-pace was close.
The good thing about NVH in EV cars is that you have fewer sources of sound to deal with and therefore can focus more .
I don't think I've ever experienced a car as quiet inside as the Taycan - the I-pace was close.
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