Discussion
Very interesting stuff Steve. My C2 is standard apart from PSS10s, Center Gravity geo at RS +5mm and some 17" Fuchs, but I'm ready for the next stage and wonder what you advise. I don't do track days in it, but like to press on on fast roads where I live in the Welsh Marches. Tuthill (who serviced it last) have suggested a Steve Wong chip and a LSD (can't remember which make) are pretty much all it needs, though I would probably add a beefed up rear ARB and some semi rigid engine mounts. What do you think? Cup pipe?
Thanks
Thanks
Steve Rance said:
Elephant Sport bushes have arrived along with the tarret Rose jointed spring plates so the car will go in for build in the next Week or so. I've also had the speedo refurbed and bought some upgraded head lamp and side light bulbs. I've desciddd against floating discs on the rear as I don't think they are worth the hastle of sorting the hand brake. So it's 964RS discs on the rear (not bad at £150 each) and floating 993 RS discs on the front.
Much written about bumpsteer problems related to the standard 964 front geometry. This maintly effects toe, which is relatively easy to drive around if you are running max caster. For me, this makes the cost/ hustle V benefit of fitting 993 evo uprights questionable. I am finding that the Elephant in the room - well medium sized dog anyway - is the movement of the rear axle. It can make the car feel a little vaigue at 10/10ths. It's relatively easily fixed by fitting rose jointed spring plates and stiffer bushes. Of course with the rear end tied down, it may transfer a problem to the front of the car as it asks for more apex speed, and with it perhaps the 993 Evo upgrade. I don't think it will as the car already has a lot of pace (relatively) and I don't think that there is a lot more to come. Based on that, I don't see a major balance disparity looming.
Will post up pics of the bushes and spring plates when I get time.
In retrospect I think bump steer was a significant factor in two of my "off piste" adventures. (964 C2 lowered coil overs)Much written about bumpsteer problems related to the standard 964 front geometry. This maintly effects toe, which is relatively easy to drive around if you are running max caster. For me, this makes the cost/ hustle V benefit of fitting 993 evo uprights questionable. I am finding that the Elephant in the room - well medium sized dog anyway - is the movement of the rear axle. It can make the car feel a little vaigue at 10/10ths. It's relatively easily fixed by fitting rose jointed spring plates and stiffer bushes. Of course with the rear end tied down, it may transfer a problem to the front of the car as it asks for more apex speed, and with it perhaps the 993 Evo upgrade. I don't think it will as the car already has a lot of pace (relatively) and I don't think that there is a lot more to come. Based on that, I don't see a major balance disparity looming.
Will post up pics of the bushes and spring plates when I get time.
I "fixed" my bump steer issues but more by accident than design.
A case off if I knew then what I know now I'd have done things differently.
For you guys running modded or track 964's out there.
Finally fitted the Tarrat rose jointed spring plates and the Elephant sport bushes. These modifications have made a big difference to the car's handling. At the frot of the car, the bushes add a layer or sharpness and control at all speeds from slow road to fast track. Steering response is sharper and more responsive. Not as much work needed to get the nose of the car into the apex on the circuit and defenately more speed to the apex. The spring plates take the vaigueness away once the car is rotated. That was the area that I found needed tightening the most. Once rotated, the rear of the car never felt truly settled and in a session of over 4 or 5 laps the rear would get a little wayward as the tyres went off. The spring plates and bushes make a huge difference in this area as they really tighten the rear of the car down and help calm excess movement in the rear axle as it loaded up on throttle on exit. Result, a more communicative and stable ride. Much less steering correction required, the rear tyres are not working anywhere near as hard as they were to 'mop things up' so they stay in for a lot longer. This may vindicate the new Cup tyre which I originally thought did stay in as long as the original Cup 1. Will report back on that one
If you are looking at spending money on the suspension of your 964, I'd look at these modifications at the same time as changing the springs and dampers. Definately something that I should have done at the outset.
Finally fitted the Tarrat rose jointed spring plates and the Elephant sport bushes. These modifications have made a big difference to the car's handling. At the frot of the car, the bushes add a layer or sharpness and control at all speeds from slow road to fast track. Steering response is sharper and more responsive. Not as much work needed to get the nose of the car into the apex on the circuit and defenately more speed to the apex. The spring plates take the vaigueness away once the car is rotated. That was the area that I found needed tightening the most. Once rotated, the rear of the car never felt truly settled and in a session of over 4 or 5 laps the rear would get a little wayward as the tyres went off. The spring plates and bushes make a huge difference in this area as they really tighten the rear of the car down and help calm excess movement in the rear axle as it loaded up on throttle on exit. Result, a more communicative and stable ride. Much less steering correction required, the rear tyres are not working anywhere near as hard as they were to 'mop things up' so they stay in for a lot longer. This may vindicate the new Cup tyre which I originally thought did stay in as long as the original Cup 1. Will report back on that one
If you are looking at spending money on the suspension of your 964, I'd look at these modifications at the same time as changing the springs and dampers. Definately something that I should have done at the outset.
An update for any of you chaps that are interested. A few more minor mods in the past few months. I took Jamie's advice and fitted a cup pipe after hearing a 964RS running earlier in the year. He was right, it wasnt too noisy and did sound very nice indeed. The chasis is now exactly how I want it so no changes at all there. The Tarrat spring plates combined with the Elephant bushes are probably the best pound for pound chasis modification that i've made but they need to be complimented with a decent set of dampers and uprated anti-roll bars if you want modern levels of chasis control. If you are not going to track the car, the brake upgrade isnt needed to be honest. The factory fitted LSD is scheduled to be replaced by a Guards unit but i'm softening up the spec a little to make it more road friendly. The remap from Wayne produced a lot of extra BHP but - again - to be honest, power is not what this car is all about. It was just as lovely with 250 bhp - but for the money it was worth it as it is more responsive and runs a lot better with the single mass flywheel.
One very useful mod is a set of LED headlights and side lights. Simple plug and play repacements that give you modern levels of light at night. That was a part of old school that I definately don't miss. The effect is amazing when compared to the original bulbs. If you have an early 911 I would reccommend them. http://woodypeck.com/?product=porsche-964-headlamp...
I have to say that the car is so much more I hoped that it would be both on the road and on the circuit. It demonstrates to me that a lot of advances in the performance of modern sports cars relates to improvements in damping and body control. Translating these into an older, relatively stiff and light shell can produce a very good car that can offer very decent level of modern performance with the tactility and involvement lost with current saftey net driving aids. I know that current regulations would prevent it, but if Porsche were to build a car like this today, it would be a lovely thing. I'm not denegrating new cars and would love a 991GT3 in my collection but, having lived with this car for several years now I've grown to realise that, if we take damping and electronic advances out of the equation, we havn't moved that far in other areas but we have lost tactility. I couldnt be without this car now. It's kind of the Ying to the Yang of my GT3. If you have the budget and you love driving an Aircooled 911 and a GT3(any) or GT4 in your garage is all that you would ever need. People often comment that aircooled cars are not worth the money when compared to modern 911's - believe me, they most definately are.
One very useful mod is a set of LED headlights and side lights. Simple plug and play repacements that give you modern levels of light at night. That was a part of old school that I definately don't miss. The effect is amazing when compared to the original bulbs. If you have an early 911 I would reccommend them. http://woodypeck.com/?product=porsche-964-headlamp...
I have to say that the car is so much more I hoped that it would be both on the road and on the circuit. It demonstrates to me that a lot of advances in the performance of modern sports cars relates to improvements in damping and body control. Translating these into an older, relatively stiff and light shell can produce a very good car that can offer very decent level of modern performance with the tactility and involvement lost with current saftey net driving aids. I know that current regulations would prevent it, but if Porsche were to build a car like this today, it would be a lovely thing. I'm not denegrating new cars and would love a 991GT3 in my collection but, having lived with this car for several years now I've grown to realise that, if we take damping and electronic advances out of the equation, we havn't moved that far in other areas but we have lost tactility. I couldnt be without this car now. It's kind of the Ying to the Yang of my GT3. If you have the budget and you love driving an Aircooled 911 and a GT3(any) or GT4 in your garage is all that you would ever need. People often comment that aircooled cars are not worth the money when compared to modern 911's - believe me, they most definately are.
Absolutely. Originally I was told that 17" wheels would not fit over the calipers but now believe that they will. My default choice for a road wheel and tyre would definately be a 17" wheel with a 45 or even 50 profile. That would give some nice complience for the road and give a nicer compromise. Ideally I'd have a set of 18" BBS E88's for the track and 17" fuchs for the road.
Mintbird said:
54 bhp ( 21,7% power increase ) on a 2 valve air cooled engine with a map...
wayne knows how to map motronic but come on - him and Ninemeister are more optimistic than Richard Hammond on cocaine, jeez....
964 C2 engine has always been underrated power wise. You realise that the first time you open up third and fourth gear if you ever get to drive a good one. Its a pretty quick car for its time especially in Steve's spec.wayne knows how to map motronic but come on - him and Ninemeister are more optimistic than Richard Hammond on cocaine, jeez....
To be honest, as I said earlier the power increase was not that relevant to the project but worth mentioning. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the dyno or the quoted power output but i can say that originally the car definatley dyno'd at 248 bhp and after the remap it was 300. Whether the car was down on power initially I couldnt say. It was a hairdyer at 250 bhp and it's still a hairdryer now - but it's a nicer hairdryer to driver and to me that's all that counts
Steve Rance said:
An update for any of you chaps that are interested. A few more minor mods in the past few months. I took Jamie's advice and fitted a cup pipe after hearing a 964RS running earlier in the year. He was right, it wasnt too noisy and did sound very nice indeed. The chasis is now exactly how I want it so no changes at all there. The Tarrat spring plates combined with the Elephant bushes are probably the best pound for pound chasis modification that i've made but they need to be complimented with a decent set of dampers and uprated anti-roll bars if you want modern levels of chasis control. If you are not going to track the car, the brake upgrade isnt needed to be honest. The factory fitted LSD is scheduled to be replaced by a Guards unit but i'm softening up the spec a little to make it more road friendly. The remap from Wayne produced a lot of extra BHP but - again - to be honest, power is not what this car is all about. It was just as lovely with 250 bhp - but for the money it was worth it as it is more responsive and runs a lot better with the single mass flywheel.
One very useful mod is a set of LED headlights and side lights. Simple plug and play repacements that give you modern levels of light at night. That was a part of old school that I definately don't miss. The effect is amazing when compared to the original bulbs. If you have an early 911 I would reccommend them. http://woodypeck.com/?product=porsche-964-headlamp...
I have to say that the car is so much more I hoped that it would be both on the road and on the circuit. It demonstrates to me that a lot of advances in the performance of modern sports cars relates to improvements in damping and body control. Translating these into an older, relatively stiff and light shell can produce a very good car that can offer very decent level of modern performance with the tactility and involvement lost with current saftey net driving aids. I know that current regulations would prevent it, but if Porsche were to build a car like this today, it would be a lovely thing. I'm not denegrating new cars and would love a 991GT3 in my collection but, having lived with this car for several years now I've grown to realise that, if we take damping and electronic advances out of the equation, we havn't moved that far in other areas but we have lost tactility. I couldnt be without this car now. It's kind of the Ying to the Yang of my GT3. If you have the budget and you love driving an Aircooled 911 and a GT3(any) or GT4 in your garage is all that you would ever need. People often comment that aircooled cars are not worth the money when compared to modern 911's - believe me, they most definately are.
Looks fantastic and bet it drives as good as it looks👍🏻One very useful mod is a set of LED headlights and side lights. Simple plug and play repacements that give you modern levels of light at night. That was a part of old school that I definately don't miss. The effect is amazing when compared to the original bulbs. If you have an early 911 I would reccommend them. http://woodypeck.com/?product=porsche-964-headlamp...
I have to say that the car is so much more I hoped that it would be both on the road and on the circuit. It demonstrates to me that a lot of advances in the performance of modern sports cars relates to improvements in damping and body control. Translating these into an older, relatively stiff and light shell can produce a very good car that can offer very decent level of modern performance with the tactility and involvement lost with current saftey net driving aids. I know that current regulations would prevent it, but if Porsche were to build a car like this today, it would be a lovely thing. I'm not denegrating new cars and would love a 991GT3 in my collection but, having lived with this car for several years now I've grown to realise that, if we take damping and electronic advances out of the equation, we havn't moved that far in other areas but we have lost tactility. I couldnt be without this car now. It's kind of the Ying to the Yang of my GT3. If you have the budget and you love driving an Aircooled 911 and a GT3(any) or GT4 in your garage is all that you would ever need. People often comment that aircooled cars are not worth the money when compared to modern 911's - believe me, they most definately are.
It really depends on what you are looking to create. It would be easy to spend £25K plus. Plus the cost of the donor car of course so you are almost in the realms of GT4 money. Would I have built the same car having to buy a donor at current retails? Knowing how it drives, I think that I would. If you are looking for rawness and involvement it's close to a good as it gets but if that's not exactly what you are looking for, I wouldnt do it.
Thanks for the reply Steve. For me, this would be a trackday/weekend car and it could probably replace the Elise in all honesty - so rawness just adds to the equation for me, rather than be a negative. For longer road-trip type journeys I'd take the GT3
Do you visit Oulton much these days with it? I'm only just down the road from there and would love to take a look if you're around any time soon
Do you visit Oulton much these days with it? I'm only just down the road from there and would love to take a look if you're around any time soon
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