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TheHeretic

69,452 posts

125 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
Phil-CH said:
I already made a topic around this topic sometime last year...

While the racing seems to be good, I still think I'd rather have back re-fueling and not force drivers into this gimmick of strategy and tyre managment to make up for the lack of re-fueling.

With re-fueling and better tyres - we had drivers being able to extract more of their car, while others tryed to gain advantages through different strategies, i.e. more fuel, less pitstops etc. Because of the weight differential, we had a bigger gap between cars than we did now when drivers are on different tyres or on equal tyres during different state.
So exchange one variable for another. Not sure what that achieves. Instead of conserving tyres, they conserve fuel. How would this be any different?

zac510

4,984 posts

76 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
Phil-CH said:
we had a bigger gap between cars than we did now when drivers are on different tyres or on equal tyres during different state.
I think you are looking through some extremely rose-tinted glasses there. The single laptime difference between two cars at a given point in the race is larger than thanks to large fuel burn, KERS, DRS and these fickle Pirelli tyres introducing new variables which can add and subtract a second in laptime, sometimes more if the team or driver gets it really right or wrong.

I don't have a standard deviation figure but it is clearly much larger than before when the car weight, car and tyre performance didn't differ much throughout the race.

That's the reason why there is so much more overtaking these days, there's not one single factor.

wicz

119 posts

42 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
davepoth said:
So specify the delta then.
What difference would this make, the leading car will always have more downforce than the chasing car. The way to minimise the delta would be reducing aero which they have done.
The only way to reduce turbulence is smaller wings and therefore less downforce which would lead to slower racing. If that is what you want to see watch the BTCC instead.

Unless you have a moveable wing that is effected less by the turbulence and is activated when a car is close behind chasing anouther, ie DRS?

Edited by wicz on Friday 27th April 12:56

Phil-CH

1,126 posts

134 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
So exchange one variable for another. Not sure what that achieves. Instead of conserving tyres, they conserve fuel. How would this be any different?
That's not quite true. You conserve fuel, if you have a specific amount of fuel (in this case, less to save weight) that needs to last for the duration of the race. If however you know that you can refuel, you maximise the performance during a stint to build a gap to maintain the advantage for your chosen strategy and to counter-balance the time it needs to pit and refuel.

Maybe my choice of words were a bit misleading. The tyres are only what they are *because* after introducing the re-fuel ban, they needed an added element to make sure there are still alternating strategies which 1.) encourages overtakes 2.) upholds the spectacle us spectators want to see.

Without the Pirelli tyres and with the refueling-ban in its place - you'd effectively have a start to finish race where the order is more or less established in the first 3 rounds and the rest is driving to the line.

The problem I see is that the style of racing has changed. While the racing surely is a spectacle, the tyres don't quite give the same 'authentic' racing we saw during the refueling era - IMO of course.

TheHeretic

69,452 posts

125 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
Phil-CH said:
That's not quite true. You conserve fuel, if you have a specific amount of fuel (in this case, less to save weight) that needs to last for the duration of the race. If however you know that you can refuel, you maximise the performance during a stint to build a gap to maintain the advantage for your chosen strategy and to counter-balance the time it needs to pit and refuel.

Maybe my choice of words were a bit misleading. The tyres are only what they are *because* after introducing the re-fuel ban, they needed an added element to make sure there are still alternating strategies which 1.) encourages overtakes 2.) upholds the spectacle us spectators want to see.

Without the Pirelli tyres and with the refueling-ban in its place - you'd effectively have a start to finish race where the order is more or less established in the first 3 rounds and the rest is driving to the line.

The problem I see is that the style of racing has changed. While the racing surely is a spectacle, the tyres don't quite give the same 'authentic' racing we saw during the refueling era - IMO of course.
Bit that is no different to putting a set of options on, over a set of primes, surely? The racy driver can lob some sorts on, and do a stop or 2 extra, knowing they will have to stop again, as opposed to the conserved driver who puts on the harder tyres, and makes than last longer, saving a pit stop, and hopefully being ahead of the racy driver.

As I said, it is just another variable, and is therefore variable. Fuel gives just as much a difference as the tyres do.
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TheArchitect

998 posts

49 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
Whatever you change the teams will work out the 'optimum' way to race a lap and unfortunately that will always mean some fuel saving or tyre saving or gambling for safety cars.

I think the best way would be to remove pit to car radios and only allow the drivers to send messages to Charlie Whiting/Race control (stops them reporting on tyre wear). Allow telemetry still though. Give all cars the same fuel load and give them x amount of tyres for the weekend to use as they see fit instead of taking them away after each session. Possibly also reduce the amount of adjustments the driver can make on the wheel.

zac510

4,984 posts

76 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
Phil-CH, banning refuelling does not negate a performance differential. I understand from my tech research and reading is that it has been quite a large factor in speed differential at different points in the race. This is because the weight of the car changing dramatically affects the ride height, which affects downforce, tyre contact patch, temperature and geometry and so forth.

The weight of the car is changing by some 160-170kg. Previously with refuelling it would change by around 60kg or thereabouts.

The operating window in which the car has to operate efficiently is much wider and as such harder for the teams to pin down the best average performance over all weight/ride height conditions.

A good example of this was Mercedes last year, it clearly performed poorly on heavy fuel loads but came around a bit later in the race as the fuel burned off.

All this is without factoring in KERS, DRS race, DRS quali, tyres which complicate it and widen the operating range further on gear ratios, overall lift:drag ratios etc.

It's also why there was such a fuss over ride height control - the team's engineers knew that the changing ride height was compromising their speed and if it was more consistent they could make the car go faster.

zac510

4,984 posts

76 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
Basically the more variables you introduce to the race engineers and drivers to play with the more likely they are to fk it up. That makes a better race for the spectators smile

Alfanatic

6,043 posts

89 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
zac510 said:
Basically the more variables you introduce to the race engineers and drivers to play with the more likely they are to fk it up. That makes a better race for the spectators smile
One that would have them tearing their hair out would be an automatic barrier that each lap might open up to let a randomly chosen car, other than the leader, follow, say, the national circuit thus taking a shortcut.

How cool would it be if, say, Alonso has been working hard for the whole race, in the lead, and then on the last lap the gate lets the 8th place Force India leapfrog the lot and take the win biggrin

zac510

4,984 posts

76 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
That would be like the rallycross joker lap smile

At least what I suggested is the same for them all. It's just rules and regulations, but crafted in a way to spice things up.

DrTre

12,428 posts

102 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
Refueling was anything but authentic and was a huge component of one of the dullest periods of f1 racing. The idea sounds good but it made for very little overtaking on the road resulted from it, even less for actual position.
2 hours is not enough for different strategies to have an impact beyond the infamous "pit overtake"
Glad to be rid, god forbid it ever returns.

Would love to see statistical breakdown of "average" start vs finishing position, I bet its phenomenally instructive, even more so when looking at on-track overtakes.

Otispunkmeyer

2,912 posts

25 months

[news] 
Friday 27th April 2012 quote quote all
nosmallfiat said:
It's an hour and a half of tyre preservation, rarely if ever going flat out.

However, it's producing brilliant racing so stick with it I say.
True

Think the guys making the rules are damned if they do, damned if they don't....

The tyres could be a little more durable though. I mean Kimi basically went backwards in China the moment his tyres went off. Couldn't defend, couldn't do anything, might as well of gotten out the car and pushed it round. Their fault for not bringing him in for tyres (or was it he had none left?) but to be honest it ruined the result.

I think the tyres just need to be a little more durable, and not have such a dramatic drop off after they've given their 3-4 good laps.

Alfanatic

6,043 posts

89 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
zac510 said:
That would be like the rallycross joker lap smile

.
You mean someone did it for real? laugh I'm afraid to mention guns and oil slicks then hehe I'll YouTube it and see how they did it

davepoth

20,194 posts

69 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
wicz said:
davepoth said:
So specify the delta then.
What difference would this make, the leading car will always have more downforce than the chasing car. The way to minimise the delta would be reducing aero which they have done.
The only way to reduce turbulence is smaller wings and therefore less downforce which would lead to slower racing. If that is what you want to see watch the BTCC instead.

Unless you have a moveable wing that is effected less by the turbulence and is activated when a car is close behind chasing anouther, ie DRS?

Edited by wicz on Friday 27th April 12:56
That's not the case. It's perfectly possible to create downforce without creating the turbulence which stops a car from following close behind, it's just that the current rules don't require, or even allow, the teams to do it.

emicen

5,704 posts

88 months

[news] 
Sunday 29th April 2012 quote quote all
Tyre maintenance/preservation has always been a part of racing, its the cliff they fall off that I would find annoying.

However, the durability of the tyres' main grievance with me is the amount of debris they shed off the racing line. Think about the great battles of F1 with Mansel, Piquet, Senna, Prost and the like going side by side for a whole lap. You just cannot go off line on a corner now after ~20 laps of a race or you will be off.

zac510

4,984 posts

76 months

[news] 
Sunday 29th April 2012 quote quote all
Them rose coloured glasses again.

I remember as a little tacker in the 90s going onto the track and picking up bits of rubber to take home as souvenirs.

GreatCornholio

1,071 posts

43 months

[news] 
Sunday 29th April 2012 quote quote all
The Hypno-Toad said:
So this would be the same Michael Schumacher who used to spend hours and hours pounding round the Ferrari test track as the prefered Bridgestone team, tailoring their construction and design to the exact set up of his car and the way he wanted to drive?

Which meant all the other Bridgestone teams were then expected to make do and mend even if the design and construction of the tyre didn't suit their car or drivers style. And he is now complaining at about the design of tyres?

"Michael, phone call for you. Its Mister Pot he has some black paint and a bag of old grapes for you,"

wink
Well said sirsmile

Jog on Schumie, talk about hypocrisy!

Phil-CH

1,126 posts

134 months

[news] 
Monday 30th April 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
Bit that is no different to putting a set of options on, over a set of primes, surely? The racy driver can lob some sorts on, and do a stop or 2 extra, knowing they will have to stop again, as opposed to the conserved driver who puts on the harder tyres, and makes than last longer, saving a pit stop, and hopefully being ahead of the racy driver.
In theory, this is true - but has it actually worked out like this the last 2 years? The problem I see is the weight - how the tyres performe depends on the weight, which is dependant on how much fuel is in it. The weight also minimizes the speed differential between alternating strategies - which is also why Pirelli have exagerated the effect with this years tyres, making the operating window even smaller...

Phil-CH

1,126 posts

134 months

[news] 
Monday 30th April 2012 quote quote all
zac510 said:
Phil-CH, banning refuelling does not negate a performance differential. I understand from my tech research and reading is that it has been quite a large factor in speed differential at different points in the race. This is because the weight of the car changing dramatically affects the ride height, which affects downforce, tyre contact patch, temperature and geometry and so forth.

The weight of the car is changing by some 160-170kg. Previously with refuelling it would change by around 60kg or thereabouts.

The operating window in which the car has to operate efficiently is much wider and as such harder for the teams to pin down the best average performance over all weight/ride height conditions.

A good example of this was Mercedes last year, it clearly performed poorly on heavy fuel loads but came around a bit later in the race as the fuel burned off.

All this is without factoring in KERS, DRS race, DRS quali, tyres which complicate it and widen the operating range further on gear ratios, overall lift:drag ratios etc.

It's also why there was such a fuss over ride height control - the team's engineers knew that the changing ride height was compromising their speed and if it was more consistent they could make the car go faster.
That is true. What my main criticsm is, is that all the teams progress through the same weight transistion; e.g. All cars start with 160-170kg more weight and gradually lose it as the race progresses. True, some cars are better set-up for minimal fuel condition (top qualifying performance), others for a better race. Given how the last two years have played out though, I'm not sure there is a lot of room there for alternating strategies.

Redbull have impressively shown how they can maximize a car that is strong in qualifying and how to maintain that gap over the extensive period of the race, perhaps even by under-fueling and managing that gap to ensure victory. It is not beneficial to focus too much on how your car performs in the 1st third of the race if the only way to achieve that is to compromise qualifying and therefore be held up half way through the race by other cars. In other words - most cars that qualified in the top 10 are set up for lighter conditions and will never be challenged by cars that *may* be better set-up for 'heavy fuel' race-pace because they are further behind, stuck behind traffic on tyres that are hyper sensitive.

The tyres are the only variable here that force teams to pit-stop, make errors, lose time and introduce the 'strategic' element (beyond set-up for high or low fuel) and give you the situation on track where a car on strategy A might come across slower car on strategy B. The problem then is, - and this is effectively what M. Schumacher is criticizing IMO - if you push the tyres too much, you may overheat/damage your tyres, nullfying your strategic advantage in the process.

If this is the case - why would you want to find yourself *ever* on a strategy that sees you having to overtake others with 'better' tyres, if the overtaking (which would be crucial to maintain your strategic advantage) then compromises your tyres and as a result your strategy? The only way the FIA have found to minimize this effect is through 'overtake-assists' - DRS and KERS - which again work on some tracks better than on others and also influence that most overtakes take part on 1 or 2 parts of the track.

Edited by Phil-CH on Monday 30th April 12:49

DrTre

12,428 posts

102 months

[news] 
Monday 30th April 2012 quote quote all
I hope upon hope that the turbo era will have a boost button then you can do away with the kers push to pass (but keep the technology).
That way the drivers have a weapon at their disposal which creates a performance differential but with a penalty (increased fuel consumption). It's then up to the drivers to gamble on their, and their cars, strengths/weaknesses abilities.

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