Almax advise against anti-pinch pins

Almax advise against anti-pinch pins

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Discussion

Pragma

21 posts

120 months

Monday 12th May 2014
quotequote all
GTIR said:
That's not entirely true.
(This is from memory when I bought mine so might not be 100% correct.)

The reason all the other chains can get cropped in under a minute is to do with shock waves. Most snap, or shatter, when cropped due to the shockwave created by the cropping.

Almax physical size stops the frequency needed for the chain to break. (I've seen an Oxford chain snap both sides when it was cropped once.) plus iirc it's had special stuff done to toughen it.
Shock waves? Huh? Sorry, a physics degree and a lot of experience says that's total tosh! Most people don't realise that bolt-cropping fundamentally involves a tensile failure. The jaws of the croppers are like wedges that are being forced together. That creates a tensile pull across the material between the jaws. If it is strong enough to resist that pull, it will not be cropped. If it isn't strong enough, that side of the chain link will tear apart and you can see the result if you look closely at the grain structure on a cropped face. Ductile materials will tear apart very easily so the grain structure is virtually invisible as it has been cut rather than torn apart across the centre. Harder materials tend to have more tensile strength, so that helps them to resist cropping, but if the ultimate tensile strength is insufficient for the croppers in use, it will still result in a failure, like a bolt when you over-tighten a nut. We are not really dealing with ductile materials here, at least we shouldn't be, as they are no good in security situations. Now, whether the other side of a chain link breaks after one side has been cut/cropped, is down to the tensile strength and stress concentrations brought to bear around the rest of the link. Any point where the sudden distortion of the cut side results in stress that is beyond the strength of the material will start another failure. Over-hard chains might be quite strong and fairly good at resisting the initial cut, but once that goes they often tend to result in an immediate fracture on the other side of the link as it is so brittle. Such inferior chains are often easily defeated with freezing & hammering attacks. The freezing increases the brittleness, and clouting it with a hammer results in it shattering. Whether the other side breaks immediately is a side issue, as a thief could easily crop that, second, side more easily than the first side anyway so if the thief gets through it once, he will very likely finish the job. Over-harness is more of a problem with thinner gauge chains as there is less metal there to give a good compromise between surface hardness (which you need to stop hacksaws) and core toughness, to give strength whilst resisting hammering and cropping. A simple mild steel chain might be case hardened to stop hacksaws, but its softness across the core means it won't have the tensile strength to stop croppers (and the lack of toughness across the section also means the case is not well supported and is more likely to collapse under the pressure from the jaws, and although that's a secondary effect, it combines with the weakness to make it easy to defeat).

I hope that helps to explain some of what this is about? I could go on, but many might say I already have :-)

LordFlathead

9,642 posts

259 months

Monday 12th May 2014
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Well said thumbup

Pragma

21 posts

120 months

Monday 12th May 2014
quotequote all
MC Bodge said:
A Well-fixed Ground anchor with hefty chain and wall anchor with lighter(?) chain off the ground through the frame and other heavy items is possibly a good combo.

Is a good u lock through a ground anchor a leverage risk or is that just paranoia?

Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 12th May 11:14
Chains up in the air are much harder to attack than anything on or near the floor. A 2-pronged approach is often a good idea. A short, thick chain, to stop the croppers, and a longer thinner chain to stop other stuff being pinched, is a common strategy for pushbikes, for instance (with both chains going through the ground anchor).

U-Locks/D-Locks are most definitely vulnerable to levering and jacking attacks. If you have to use one, try to fill the space inside the 'D' to minimise opportunities for a thief to get a lever etc in there.

Chains are not vulnerable to the same kinds of attacks as D-locks, which is why we tend to think that D-locks are mainly relevant as a compromise for portability and, for back at home, you should normally use a chain and a proper padlock (and the D-lock as well if you've got it, but as an independent/secondary deterrent; _not_ tethering the chain).

GTIR

24,741 posts

267 months

Monday 12th May 2014
quotequote all
It's all about shock waves.

I got a D in Science see.

LordFlathead

9,642 posts

259 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
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Was that shock waves to your head? heheeek

creampuff

6,511 posts

144 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
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Prof Prolapse said:
Like parfait?
More like the new layers of fat after my month long holiday.

ZesPak

24,439 posts

197 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
Pragma said:
MC Bodge said:
A Well-fixed Ground anchor with hefty chain and wall anchor with lighter(?) chain off the ground through the frame and other heavy items is possibly a good combo.

Is a good u lock through a ground anchor a leverage risk or is that just paranoia?

Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 12th May 11:14
Chains up in the air are much harder to attack than anything on or near the floor. A 2-pronged approach is often a good idea. A short, thick chain, to stop the croppers, and a longer thinner chain to stop other stuff being pinched, is a common strategy for pushbikes, for instance (with both chains going through the ground anchor).

U-Locks/D-Locks are most definitely vulnerable to levering and jacking attacks. If you have to use one, try to fill the space inside the 'D' to minimise opportunities for a thief to get a lever etc in there.

Chains are not vulnerable to the same kinds of attacks as D-locks, which is why we tend to think that D-locks are mainly relevant as a compromise for portability and, for back at home, you should normally use a chain and a proper padlock (and the D-lock as well if you've got it, but as an independent/secondary deterrent; _not_ tethering the chain).
This video, albeit by Almax themselves so far from objective:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpf35C7wu6Q

illustrates how chains will do by very large hand croppers. As you can see, the guy has to use his entire body for some of these, using the ground to rest the other handle of the croppers on. If a chain is higher up, it'll be a lot harder to position the croppers properly to achieve this level of leverage. So, the chain off the ground (or, for example, a chain that only just fits between the wall and the bike so they'll have to crop between the wall and the bike) is a very good obstacle for hand croppers. Of course, for electrical ones or for grinding it's a lot less of an issue.

Mike600F

1,049 posts

157 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
Pragma said:
GTIR said:
That's not entirely true.
(This is from memory when I bought mine so might not be 100% correct.)

The reason all the other chains can get cropped in under a minute is to do with shock waves. Most snap, or shatter, when cropped due to the shockwave created by the cropping.

Almax physical size stops the frequency needed for the chain to break. (I've seen an Oxford chain snap both sides when it was cropped once.) plus iirc it's had special stuff done to toughen it.
Shock waves? Huh? Sorry, a physics degree and a lot of experience says that's total tosh! Most people don't realise that bolt-cropping fundamentally involves a tensile failure. The jaws of the croppers are like wedges that are being forced together. That creates a tensile pull across the material between the jaws. If it is strong enough to resist that pull, it will not be cropped. If it isn't strong enough, that side of the chain link will tear apart and you can see the result if you look closely at the grain structure on a cropped face. Ductile materials will tear apart very easily so the grain structure is virtually invisible as it has been cut rather than torn apart across the centre. Harder materials tend to have more tensile strength, so that helps them to resist cropping, but if the ultimate tensile strength is insufficient for the croppers in use, it will still result in a failure, like a bolt when you over-tighten a nut. We are not really dealing with ductile materials here, at least we shouldn't be, as they are no good in security situations. Now, whether the other side of a chain link breaks after one side has been cut/cropped, is down to the tensile strength and stress concentrations brought to bear around the rest of the link. Any point where the sudden distortion of the cut side results in stress that is beyond the strength of the material will start another failure. Over-hard chains might be quite strong and fairly good at resisting the initial cut, but once that goes they often tend to result in an immediate fracture on the other side of the link as it is so brittle. Such inferior chains are often easily defeated with freezing & hammering attacks. The freezing increases the brittleness, and clouting it with a hammer results in it shattering. Whether the other side breaks immediately is a side issue, as a thief could easily crop that, second, side more easily than the first side anyway so if the thief gets through it once, he will very likely finish the job. Over-harness is more of a problem with thinner gauge chains as there is less metal there to give a good compromise between surface hardness (which you need to stop hacksaws) and core toughness, to give strength whilst resisting hammering and cropping. A simple mild steel chain might be case hardened to stop hacksaws, but its softness across the core means it won't have the tensile strength to stop croppers (and the lack of toughness across the section also means the case is not well supported and is more likely to collapse under the pressure from the jaws, and although that's a secondary effect, it combines with the weakness to make it easy to defeat).

I hope that helps to explain some of what this is about? I could go on, but many might say I already have :-)
I do think in this case you are absolutely correct in what you say.

But the shockwave thing isn't total nonsense, depending on how it was formed, shockwaves can destroy things from inside. There's a good example on YouTube if you search "prince Rupert's drop" on the smarter everyday channel. (I'll post a link when I get to a compute).

Note in the video that the glass does not break with the hammer blow, because of the way it was cooled. The same effect coul be seen if metal was cooled quickly enough from a high enough temperature. The shattering due to shockwaves could then be replacete in a chain link; you just need a local failure(a nick in the link), that would propagate into a global (entire link) failure.

GTIR

24,741 posts

267 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
>cough<

bowtie

Deranged Granny

2,313 posts

169 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
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"Something I saw off youtube" vs a Physics degree.

Who will win?

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

191 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
Deranged Granny said:
"Something I saw off youtube" vs a Physics degree.

Who will win?
The first one to realise they're both correct but one has defined 'shockwave' incorrectly.

ZesPak

24,439 posts

197 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
Deranged Granny said:
"Something I saw off youtube" vs a Physics degree.

Who will win?
Youtube, nearly every time.
If you doubt it, go check out the "smarter everyday" channel that was mentioned. There are a number of channels that illustrate their science, their sources and practical experiments. I'd trust them any day of the week over someone on the internet who says "I have a physics degree".

That said, no youtube channel ever said that it's shockwaves destroying the chain.

Dog Star

16,161 posts

169 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
ZesPak said:
If you doubt it, go check out the "smarter everyday" channel that was mentioned. There are a number of channels that illustrate their science, their sources and practical experiments. I'd trust them any day of the week over someone on the internet who says "I have a physics degree".
Are you for real? I'd say I'd be believing what the bloke "with the physics degree" says about what makes chains break, shockwaves and the like, not because of his physics degree but simply because making these chains and lock systems and specifiying their hardness etc is *his job*.



Deranged Granny

2,313 posts

169 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
ZesPak said:
Youtube, nearly every time.
If you doubt it, go check out the "smarter everyday" channel that was mentioned. There are a number of channels that illustrate their science, their sources and practical experiments. I'd trust them any day of the week over someone on the internet who says "I have a physics degree".

That said, no youtube channel ever said that it's shockwaves destroying the chain.
Well that's just it isn't it? It's all well and good seeing something and going "See, look, that proves it!', but if you fail to actually understand the principles behind it then you can't apply it to this situation. As DStar says, I know who I would tend to believe in this situation.

Edited by Deranged Granny on Tuesday 13th May 09:39

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

191 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
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You'd be a fool to believe any argument based simply on authority surely?

Deranged Granny

2,313 posts

169 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
Certainly, hence why I said "tend to believe". From the outset, however, the explanation from Physics man made more sense than that from Youtube man.

GTIR

24,741 posts

267 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
I'm confused now. confused (not hard, unlike Almax chains)

In all seriousness the Almax people themselves mentioned shockwaves - it's not something that just popped into my non physics degree head - otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Either way, I'll not be buying that blokes products, that he's indirectly trying to flog, because if I had to ask some stupid non physics degree type of questions I don't think I could put up with his patronising manner.

"Huh, shock waves? You stupid customer. Go away and think about what you've said but don't forget to go on our website, if you can manage it, and check out our new products!"

smile

ZesPak

24,439 posts

197 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
Dog Star said:
ZesPak said:
If you doubt it, go check out the "smarter everyday" channel that was mentioned. There are a number of channels that illustrate their science, their sources and practical experiments. I'd trust them any day of the week over someone on the internet who says "I have a physics degree".
Are you for real? I'd say I'd be believing what the bloke "with the physics degree" says about what makes chains break, shockwaves and the like, not because of his physics degree but simply because making these chains and lock systems and specifiying their hardness etc is *his job*.
Agreed in this case, and his argument makes a lot more sense. Though your question was "youtube vid vs physics degree". As someone who works with a lot of people with high degrees, I'd go for the youtube vids every day of the week for the reasons stated. Not to mention that anybody on the internet can claim just about anything. While in a youtube vid like smarter everyday, they often refer to publishings, get in a couple of other channels (Veritasium/Vsauce for example), get in a couple of specialists on the subject. It could all still be set up but it's a lot harder to set up than just shouting a claim on a forum.

But you don't have to take my word for it, I'm just an M.D. so I don't have any knowledge on the breaking point of chains.

Edited by ZesPak on Tuesday 13th May 10:03

Deranged Granny

2,313 posts

169 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
Is anybody going to actually explain this or is it just a smugness contest?

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

191 months

Tuesday 13th May 2014
quotequote all
graphene said:
Prof Prolapse said:
You'd be a fool to believe any argument based simply on authority surely?
Indeed. However, let's ignore them both and wait for a materials engineer to explain this one.
Then we get to wait for the Senior Engineer.