Just how rare are Griffiths now ?
Discussion
7 TVR said:
I also see the Griff as being the one to watch in terms of value with the SE obviously carrying a premium!
But where does that leave my little Griff club, i know of 5 LS Griffs 2 Sportmotive, 1 Topcats, 1 Home build and i believe the first which was a grey car from Holland! [One of these being an SE]
Obviously there are many who would say that the value has been diluted as the cars are not original although in the case of the cars i've seen the level of finish is far superior than anything that left the production line @ TVR!
My car is stamped No1 of 10 and i know Topcats are developing a very specific LS Branding with a limited number of highly finished conversions which i hope will carry a premium in years to come, much in the same way one of Str8six's or Powers SP6 engine re-builds improves a T cars re-sale value.
I've spent the purchase price of my Griff twice over and then some and cannot even equate the sentimental value so was pleasantly surprised to be offered a serious sum whilst out @ the ring in October followed by another offer @ Spa!, both where politely declined but it just goes to confirm the mantra i trade on every day "Somethings worth what someones willing to pay for it" that and " No matter how hard you try you cannot polish a turd"
The key lies in the brand. If the brand builds a reputation for excellence or excitement etc then you wouldn't be surprised to find these cars forming their own higher market. But where does that leave my little Griff club, i know of 5 LS Griffs 2 Sportmotive, 1 Topcats, 1 Home build and i believe the first which was a grey car from Holland! [One of these being an SE]
Obviously there are many who would say that the value has been diluted as the cars are not original although in the case of the cars i've seen the level of finish is far superior than anything that left the production line @ TVR!
My car is stamped No1 of 10 and i know Topcats are developing a very specific LS Branding with a limited number of highly finished conversions which i hope will carry a premium in years to come, much in the same way one of Str8six's or Powers SP6 engine re-builds improves a T cars re-sale value.
I've spent the purchase price of my Griff twice over and then some and cannot even equate the sentimental value so was pleasantly surprised to be offered a serious sum whilst out @ the ring in October followed by another offer @ Spa!, both where politely declined but it just goes to confirm the mantra i trade on every day "Somethings worth what someones willing to pay for it" that and " No matter how hard you try you cannot polish a turd"
However, if an identical car is made but in a shed and without a brand then it will be worth next to nothing. It's like many mods, the classic market wants to pay for originality or branded mods and will punish those that don't fit. There are obviously sensible mods and these can be excluded but in X years time buyers will want a Griff that looks exactly like the original brochures or brand. If values really climbed at some point then we will see many of the current cosmetic mods being undone.
History shows that the market doesn't like home builds or similar, however good. But it does like a niche brand that can be pitched as a superior product to the original.
Make sure TopCats secure their brand and position it well and you'll probably copy the Overfinch result.
DonkeyApple said:
The key lies in the brand. If the brand builds a reputation for excellence or excitement etc then you wouldn't be surprised to find these cars forming their own higher market.
However, if an identical car is made but in a shed and without a brand then it will be worth next to nothing. It's like many mods, the classic market wants to pay for originality or branded mods and will punish those that don't fit. There are obviously sensible mods and these can be excluded but in X years time buyers will want a Griff that looks exactly like the original brochures or brand. If values really climbed at some point then we will see many of the current cosmetic mods being undone.
History shows that the market doesn't like home builds or similar, however good. But it does like a niche brand that can be pitched as a superior product to the original.
Make sure TopCats secure their brand and position it well and you'll probably copy the Overfinch result.
I know that you've posted this a few times but I still wonder. The other side of the coin with TVR is that they were never a mainstream manufacturer with a fixed spec model; more than that the construction of every car and the ownership encouraged modification.However, if an identical car is made but in a shed and without a brand then it will be worth next to nothing. It's like many mods, the classic market wants to pay for originality or branded mods and will punish those that don't fit. There are obviously sensible mods and these can be excluded but in X years time buyers will want a Griff that looks exactly like the original brochures or brand. If values really climbed at some point then we will see many of the current cosmetic mods being undone.
History shows that the market doesn't like home builds or similar, however good. But it does like a niche brand that can be pitched as a superior product to the original.
Make sure TopCats secure their brand and position it well and you'll probably copy the Overfinch result.
TA14 said:
I know that you've posted this a few times but I still wonder. The other side of the coin with TVR is that they were never a mainstream manufacturer with a fixed spec model; more than that the construction of every car and the ownership encouraged modification.
It's hard to use TVRs pre Griff era to see what could happen with the post Griff cars as the Griff catapulted the brand into the public conscious. But we can look at the classic car market for guidance and that does show that a car buggered about with is considered far less valuable than an original or one modded with a brand.
You can look at Minis for example. Unfettled ones in good condition command more than modded ones. The likes of Broadspeed, Sprint or W&P even more.
If you turn up to buy a Griff and the bloke shows you a mint car in original spec and all the paperwork you can see that a buyer would pay more than for one which has had a load of cosmetic changes etc. all things being equal. It's just the way it works.
It doesn't really matter how good the work is it will be marked down.
I can't see much to stop the 90s Tivs from being any different to other classics.
We are in the cheap to buy, fun to mod period at present but at some point this will evolve to people who know nothing of TVRs making themselves leading authorities and claiming all sorts of b
ks as they seek the most original car to relive their missed youth with and bore people senseless. And if there are loads of old articles about the TopCat Griffs and their amazing ness and limited number then people will want those above a standard original.
We shall just have to see what happens when people in the 20s back in the early 90s do when they hit mid 50s. Christ, if the last lot are pissing money away on MGs then anything can happen.
DonkeyApple said:
You can look at Minis for example. Unfettled ones in good condition command more than modded ones. The likes of Broadspeed, Sprint or W&P even more.
I understand the point that you make but I just doubt how applicable it is to TVRs. The Mini example here, as with the Range Rover example and even Blower Bentleys are mods to what could be described as a standard car. I see two problems here:1) What is a standard car? (Are any two exactly the same?)
2) What do people perceive as a standard car? I've seen people criticise cars for having multi-spoke wheels saying 'who fitted those?'
RV8 engined Stags don't fare well for value.
I just think that it's very unclear.
7 TVR said:
with the SE obviously carrying a premium!
I think this is an interesting point of discussion too. IMO the current SE premium is due to their relative newness and low mileage because the Griff exists in the "second hand" market rather than the "classic" market.If you take classic cars as an example then in many cases it is the first model which commands the premium. It will be interesting if this happens with the Griff as it becomes a classic.
There are a few points I think might make a difference although I'm not sure in which direction it will go:
1) Lack of Cats in the early cars - taking the F40 as an example there tends to be a premium for pre-cat cars as they are seen as more free-breathing and rev-hungry
2) The change of nose - is the early cars nose the "purer" original design or is the later 500 E-type like nose more aesthetically pleasing to buyers?
3) Sound - there is a lot of stuff in the motoring literature suggesting the sound of a pre-cat Griff is better and this kind of opinion can influence the market
Overall I agree with the concept that an original condition will be worth more in the future. When modifiers add value to the car it tends to be through close association to the manufacturer in period. IMO things like the Topcats modification haven't had enough hype to put them into many buyers consciousness.
That's a bit of a rambling post but I think it's quite an interesting topic - what makes a classic?
Interesting discussion but I imagine we won't know the answer till 20 or so years hence.
I remember lusting after cars in my teens and 20s that I would have bought if I had the cash (I always bought the wrong ones) that are now worth hundreds of thousaands of pounds, some where reletively inexpensive and some although appear cheap now were still as out of reach then as they are now.
I think we'd all be millionaires if we'd known what to buy.
I remember looking theough some early '80s Motor & Autocar magazines a few years back and seeing Ferrari Daytonas listed at £15k to £22k and then seeing them literally going through the roof in a few months (during then last Ferrari buying mania) to something like £750k before they fell back a few years later.
I doubt TVRs will ever reach the dizzy heights of being too expensive to drive but they'll certainly achieve some sort of 'collectable' status but I really do think that straight, well sorted cars that are more or less standard (Still riunning an RV8, Speed 6 or AJP engine) will be the most sought after but there will be a market for modified cars as they'll be regarded as 'modified in period'.
That latter acceptance will take longer I suspect.
I remember lusting after cars in my teens and 20s that I would have bought if I had the cash (I always bought the wrong ones) that are now worth hundreds of thousaands of pounds, some where reletively inexpensive and some although appear cheap now were still as out of reach then as they are now.
I think we'd all be millionaires if we'd known what to buy.
I remember looking theough some early '80s Motor & Autocar magazines a few years back and seeing Ferrari Daytonas listed at £15k to £22k and then seeing them literally going through the roof in a few months (during then last Ferrari buying mania) to something like £750k before they fell back a few years later.
I doubt TVRs will ever reach the dizzy heights of being too expensive to drive but they'll certainly achieve some sort of 'collectable' status but I really do think that straight, well sorted cars that are more or less standard (Still riunning an RV8, Speed 6 or AJP engine) will be the most sought after but there will be a market for modified cars as they'll be regarded as 'modified in period'.
That latter acceptance will take longer I suspect.
TA14 said:
DonkeyApple said:
You can look at Minis for example. Unfettled ones in good condition command more than modded ones. The likes of Broadspeed, Sprint or W&P even more.
I understand the point that you make but I just doubt how applicable it is to TVRs. The Mini example here, as with the Range Rover example and even Blower Bentleys are mods to what could be described as a standard car. I see two problems here:1) What is a standard car? (Are any two exactly the same?)
2) What do people perceive as a standard car? I've seen people criticise cars for having multi-spoke wheels saying 'who fitted those?'
RV8 engined Stags don't fare well for value.
I just think that it's very unclear.
I know what you are saying but by the time these cars are genuine classics it won't be us enthusiasts who owned them at the time who define the rules but some group of dull nobs who appoint themselves as the all great authority on the matter.
The F40 story recently of how the owner took it straight from the factory to a concours show and was marked down for non factory changes.
But with Griffs the main cosmetic changes are pretty well documented. From wheels to grills to rear lights and the dash change. I think finer things will go under the radar.
Rear lights are a good example. I will wager that in maybe 10 years time people are ripping out the Lexus units or whatever the sparkly ones are and scouring Ebay for the original ones to go back in. Any CF stuff will be coming off if in view and dashes will be being reveneered.
V8 GRF said:
I doubt TVRs will ever reach the dizzy heights of being too expensive to drive but they'll certainly achieve some sort of 'collectable' status but I really do think that straight, well sorted cars that are more or less standard (Still riunning an RV8, Speed 6 or AJP engine) will be the most sought after but there will be a market for modified cars as they'll be regarded as 'modified in period'.
That latter acceptance will take longer I suspect.
On that front how will the 4.7 AJP cars be viewed? Modified or something that could have left the factory from new? What about 4.0 Griffs with a 4.6 lump in? (Later serp will be visually different but will this matter?)That latter acceptance will take longer I suspect.
DonkeyApple said:
Rear lights are a good example. I will wager that in maybe 10 years time people are ripping out the Lexus units or whatever the sparkly ones are and scouring Ebay for the original ones to go back in. Any CF stuff will be coming off if in view and dashes will be being reveneered.
I do hope so.TA14 said:
V8 GRF said:
I doubt TVRs will ever reach the dizzy heights of being too expensive to drive but they'll certainly achieve some sort of 'collectable' status but I really do think that straight, well sorted cars that are more or less standard (Still riunning an RV8, Speed 6 or AJP engine) will be the most sought after but there will be a market for modified cars as they'll be regarded as 'modified in period'.
That latter acceptance will take longer I suspect.
On that front how will the 4.7 AJP cars be viewed? Modified or something that could have left the factory from new? What about 4.0 Griffs with a 4.6 lump in? (Later serp will be visually different but will this matter?)That latter acceptance will take longer I suspect.
Rebuilt engines to improve things I don't see as an issue unless you're talking about entering the kind of 'sniffy concours' that F40 was entered into. That said I'd be surprised if TVRs ever get accepted into that kind of elite group but going even further into the future when we're dead and buried who knows? I imagine some of the stuff that's revered now was sniffed at in period or even twenty years after the fact.
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