Instructions to change fuel maps on 14CUX Griffith, Chimaera
Discussion
davep said:
Guys, a quick method for doing file compares to identify differences in the data variables, scalers, etc., between two tunes is to use the Windiff.exe utility. This is especially useful on .lst files, for example:
Dave, Windiff.exe looks handy, but your lst file looks even more interesting, do you have a lst or symbol file for a later prom?
jjohnson23 said:
R3652 with the 3.5L scalars would be brilliant Steve,i`m willing to try any tune that is non cat.
As I said earlier all the results I get I will forward to you.
With a bit of luck I should be getting an AEM digital failsafe wideband kit at the end of the month,it should be ideal for what I believe I need.Has anyone on here got any experience of these?
PaulAs I said earlier all the results I get I will forward to you.
With a bit of luck I should be getting an AEM digital failsafe wideband kit at the end of the month,it should be ideal for what I believe I need.Has anyone on here got any experience of these?
No worries, I’ll build the 3.5L R3652 for you but please bear in mind that I have no means of testing it but don’t panic as I’m confident it will be good enough to get you started.
The AEM digital failsafe looks an interesting bit of kit, but I’m concerned you may not be able to merge its output log with the Rovergauge log which is important if you want to remap your ECU yourself. If you are interested then ask for a sample log file so you can see the output frequency and the time reference and also try and find out its raw output format.
Mark Blitz,
As the AEM digital failsafe logs AFR, RPM and vacuum would the vacuum readings be good enough to workout the active row in the fuel table?
Glad to see that the contributions are helping.
I got my Discovery running over the weekend and have been driving it a lot.
I did a quick data log of a quick drive with a bit of full throttle in first gear and some in second but need to get on the free way for some high speed stuff.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32915860/2015-...
Hopefully this will help out understanding the tune in a 3.5.
You may also notice that some throttle positions jump around and don't match the MAF reading between 70% and 90% due to a faulty throttle position sensor but foot flat to the floor still reads ok most of the time.
I got my Discovery running over the weekend and have been driving it a lot.
I did a quick data log of a quick drive with a bit of full throttle in first gear and some in second but need to get on the free way for some high speed stuff.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32915860/2015-...
Hopefully this will help out understanding the tune in a 3.5.
You may also notice that some throttle positions jump around and don't match the MAF reading between 70% and 90% due to a faulty throttle position sensor but foot flat to the floor still reads ok most of the time.
stevesprint said:
Keza87
Thanks for you valuable contribution to this effort, it’s much appreciated as we now finally have a 3.5L bin to complete the collection.
There's at least one more ROM that I'd be very interested in seeing. A small number of V8S cars were built for the Italian market with an Eaton supercharger, and the engine de-stroked to 2.0L to avoid incurring the Italian engine displacement tax. They still used the 14CUX, so it would be nice to see what adjustments were made to deal with the small displacement and forced induction.Thanks for you valuable contribution to this effort, it’s much appreciated as we now finally have a 3.5L bin to complete the collection.
There's a thread about one of these cars here. I contacted the owner a while back, but he'd unfortunately already sold the car.
cmb said:
There's at least one more ROM that I'd be very interested in seeing. A small number of V8S cars were built for the Italian market with an Eaton supercharger, and the engine de-stroked to 2.0L to avoid incurring the Italian engine displacement tax. They still used the 14CUX, so it would be nice to see what adjustments were made to deal with the small displacement and forced induction.
There's a thread about one of these cars here. I contacted the owner a while back, but he'd unfortunately already sold the car.
ColinThere's a thread about one of these cars here. I contacted the owner a while back, but he'd unfortunately already sold the car.
A 2.0L Rover V8 is news to me so I'm impressed you find out from the far side of the Atlantic. I’d also like to see the crank, rods and pistons.
To be honest I’m also keeping an eye out for a Chimaera 430 map as I'd be interested to compare TVR’s 430 cat map with my 430 precat map and TVR's 450 cat map that runs surprisingly well in my 430. If I spot one at a show I’ll try my usual cheap trick of offering to check their fault codes with RoverGauge and then quickly save a copy.
It’s brilliant we now have Kieran 3.5L non cat map but I’m not totally convinced the cat map is correct for a 3.5L mainly because it has the same main fuel scalar as Land Rover’s R2422 3.9 UK cat map, However it could still be correct for a 3.5L as the AFM scalar is unique. Therefore it would still be helpful to see a 3.5L cat map from a UK Disco, hint hint if you know anyone with one.
Hi all,
I found this thread last week but it has taken me until now to read my way through it. It's almost unbelievable how much information you have all in one place and the time that must have been spent getting to this point.
I have a 1995 4.2 Range Rover Classic fitted with a 4.6 but still on the factory ECU. I have been using rover gauge for a while trying to track down a cold running problem (light throttle causes the car to stall when cold) and a slight stumble when first applying acceleration. I'd assumed both issues were down to the engine having larger displacement than the ECU understood. I have now ordered a programmer from ebay so fingers crossed that, some EEPROM chips and a used 14CUX will see the problem solved.
Looking at Steve's list of images, you have the 4.3 range rover as 3383, rover gauge shows mine as 3384. Is there a handy list of the build numbers anywhere showing the differences?
I found this thread last week but it has taken me until now to read my way through it. It's almost unbelievable how much information you have all in one place and the time that must have been spent getting to this point.
I have a 1995 4.2 Range Rover Classic fitted with a 4.6 but still on the factory ECU. I have been using rover gauge for a while trying to track down a cold running problem (light throttle causes the car to stall when cold) and a slight stumble when first applying acceleration. I'd assumed both issues were down to the engine having larger displacement than the ECU understood. I have now ordered a programmer from ebay so fingers crossed that, some EEPROM chips and a used 14CUX will see the problem solved.
Looking at Steve's list of images, you have the 4.3 range rover as 3383, rover gauge shows mine as 3384. Is there a handy list of the build numbers anywhere showing the differences?
terryg82 said:
Hi all,
I found this thread last week but it has taken me until now to read my way through it. It's almost unbelievable how much information you have all in one place and the time that must have been spent getting to this point.
I have a 1995 4.2 Range Rover Classic fitted with a 4.6 but still on the factory ECU. I have been using rover gauge for a while trying to track down a cold running problem (light throttle causes the car to stall when cold) and a slight stumble when first applying acceleration. I'd assumed both issues were down to the engine having larger displacement than the ECU understood. I have now ordered a programmer from ebay so fingers crossed that, some EEPROM chips and a used 14CUX will see the problem solved.
Looking at Steve's list of images, you have the 4.3 range rover as 3383, rover gauge shows mine as 3384. Is there a handy list of the build numbers anywhere showing the differences?
Welcome, I'm pleased you've found my list of prom image files and please help yourself.I found this thread last week but it has taken me until now to read my way through it. It's almost unbelievable how much information you have all in one place and the time that must have been spent getting to this point.
I have a 1995 4.2 Range Rover Classic fitted with a 4.6 but still on the factory ECU. I have been using rover gauge for a while trying to track down a cold running problem (light throttle causes the car to stall when cold) and a slight stumble when first applying acceleration. I'd assumed both issues were down to the engine having larger displacement than the ECU understood. I have now ordered a programmer from ebay so fingers crossed that, some EEPROM chips and a used 14CUX will see the problem solved.
Looking at Steve's list of images, you have the 4.3 range rover as 3383, rover gauge shows mine as 3384. Is there a handy list of the build numbers anywhere showing the differences?
R3383 is a 3.9 tune that came with a RRC 3.9 engine I bought a long time ago so I've quickly updated it's description with 3.9. In the past I have copied my TVR 4.3 fuel data into R3383. Your R3384 is a tune we don't have hint hint and sounds like the 4.2 version of R3383.
If you are running cats I would suggest you first try "TVR Griffith 430 Precat & TVR Chimmaera 450 CAT combined in Land Rover final revision R3652" because TVR Chimaera 450s are actually the later Land Rover 4.6 engines with the larger journals but assembled with 4L pistons to increase the CR. Your ECU may then require a remap depending on the modifications to your engine.
Together, I'm sure we can improve the running of your 4.6 so please do not hesitate to ask any further questions.
Best wishes, Steve Sprint
Hi Steve, When I get home I can plonk the bin online for you or if you would like to PM me your email address I can send it over.
My cats went the way of the dodo a long time ago. It goes through an emissions test without them and the MOT tester doesn't seem to have noticed their absence for the last few years. I do still have the lambda probes fitted, otherwise the engine has a 4.2 land rover cam to allow it to work with a distributor and tubular exhaust manifolds. Everything else is standard.
I've downloaded the image you suggested, i am now waiting for the Chinese postal service to deliver my goodies so i can start playing!
My cats went the way of the dodo a long time ago. It goes through an emissions test without them and the MOT tester doesn't seem to have noticed their absence for the last few years. I do still have the lambda probes fitted, otherwise the engine has a 4.2 land rover cam to allow it to work with a distributor and tubular exhaust manifolds. Everything else is standard.
I've downloaded the image you suggested, i am now waiting for the Chinese postal service to deliver my goodies so i can start playing!
Terry
Thanks for your R3384, I’ve uploaded a copy to my website for everyone that I've prepared for TunerPro and flashing to a chip. http://www.stevesprint.com/remap-14cux/bins . I’ve also added its details to my tunes settings spreadsheet in the same column as NAS 4.2 as your UK 4.2 cat fuel data is identical to the NAS cat fuel data. As expected the R3384 program software is exactly the same software as R3383 including the fixed data after the last map.
Your current R3384 4.2 AFM scalar is surprising similar to the 3.9 AFM scalar which means I’m sure your 4.6 would hit the bottom of the fuel table to easily. Therefore I still consider the Chimmy 450 cat map as a good starting point for your 4.6 as at least it has the same AFM scalar as the Griff 500 and Griff 4.3 Precat and lets hope it also improves your cold starting.
Good luck with your programmer, I’m sure you’ll enjoy the slippery slope and remember we are always here to help.
Best Wishes, Steve Sprint
Thanks for your R3384, I’ve uploaded a copy to my website for everyone that I've prepared for TunerPro and flashing to a chip. http://www.stevesprint.com/remap-14cux/bins . I’ve also added its details to my tunes settings spreadsheet in the same column as NAS 4.2 as your UK 4.2 cat fuel data is identical to the NAS cat fuel data. As expected the R3384 program software is exactly the same software as R3383 including the fixed data after the last map.
Your current R3384 4.2 AFM scalar is surprising similar to the 3.9 AFM scalar which means I’m sure your 4.6 would hit the bottom of the fuel table to easily. Therefore I still consider the Chimmy 450 cat map as a good starting point for your 4.6 as at least it has the same AFM scalar as the Griff 500 and Griff 4.3 Precat and lets hope it also improves your cold starting.
Good luck with your programmer, I’m sure you’ll enjoy the slippery slope and remember we are always here to help.
Best Wishes, Steve Sprint
Dave & Dan
As the history and development of the program code and PCB may help us I bid £5.00 on this 13CU and to my surprise I actually won it, it’s a shame 14CUXs aren’t that cheap. When I opened it I was even more surprised to discover it doesn't have an Eprom chip, so I've just read MC68701U4.pdf and now understand why. I bet you would like to have a look at the program code, well I'd certainly like you to have a look at it for us.
As I was feeling luckily I also bid on this 14CU that was nearly as cheap. When it arrived I was pleasantly surprised to discover I actually received a small collection of interesting Lucas ECUs. You can see them all here http://www.stevesprint.com/remap-14cux/13CU_14CU including the MC68701U4 data sheet. When you realise the cars they are for you’ll instantly understand why the ebay seller was probably pleased to get rid of them all.
Although it’s now obvious what’s missing from the 14CU I’m guessing its code will be similar to the SAAB code as it’s also for a four-cylinder engine. I’m sure you’ll agree the code from a V8 14CU would be more helpful, but I can’t complain as they were all so cheap.
As the history and development of the program code and PCB may help us I bid £5.00 on this 13CU and to my surprise I actually won it, it’s a shame 14CUXs aren’t that cheap. When I opened it I was even more surprised to discover it doesn't have an Eprom chip, so I've just read MC68701U4.pdf and now understand why. I bet you would like to have a look at the program code, well I'd certainly like you to have a look at it for us.
As I was feeling luckily I also bid on this 14CU that was nearly as cheap. When it arrived I was pleasantly surprised to discover I actually received a small collection of interesting Lucas ECUs. You can see them all here http://www.stevesprint.com/remap-14cux/13CU_14CU including the MC68701U4 data sheet. When you realise the cars they are for you’ll instantly understand why the ebay seller was probably pleased to get rid of them all.
Although it’s now obvious what’s missing from the 14CU I’m guessing its code will be similar to the SAAB code as it’s also for a four-cylinder engine. I’m sure you’ll agree the code from a V8 14CU would be more helpful, but I can’t complain as they were all so cheap.
Interesting post Steve! When are you opening the Lucas Engine Management System museum to the public? Form an orderly queue here please.
Looking at the 14CU shot and date code it occurred to me that the Lucas production line(s) for these units must have been capable of handling different 'variants' of PCB according to application. If I've read that date code correctly 14CU was still in production well into the '90s, and intended for markets where OBDI and diagnostics were not a requirement.
The designers certainly favoured the Hitachi DAC chip didn't they.
Not sure how the EPROM contents can be read out of the microcontroller on the 13CU without an OBD interface.
Looking at the 14CU shot and date code it occurred to me that the Lucas production line(s) for these units must have been capable of handling different 'variants' of PCB according to application. If I've read that date code correctly 14CU was still in production well into the '90s, and intended for markets where OBDI and diagnostics were not a requirement.
The designers certainly favoured the Hitachi DAC chip didn't they.
Not sure how the EPROM contents can be read out of the microcontroller on the 13CU without an OBD interface.
This IS interesting. The 68701 is very similar to the later 6803 except for the 4K of internal EPROM. The trend toward higher levels of integration and fewer discrete components with each succeeding generation was reversed in this case. They went from one chip to two when they introduced a separate EPROM. Of course, this was necessary since 4K was just too small (more than 12K is used in the 14CUX).
At that time, they were apparently not thinking about field upgrades either. Once that 40-pin device was soldered into the board, software was not ever going to change again.
It looks like the only way to read this EPROM is to assume that the serial port baud rate and comm protocol are the same as the 14CUX. This is a real possibility since, hardware-wise, both the serial port and oscillator are the same. Also, I'm guessing that the serial port routines were developed early (probably in Bosch L-Jetronic days) since the port was an essential development tool.
In the 14CU photo, components are missing in the lower left, including one of the injector drive transistors. Is this how you determined that it's for a single bank engine, Steve? Also, I'm surprised that there isn't more clutter on the board considering that the two vertical daughter boards had not yet been added. Those daughter boards condition 16 channels worth of signals going into the ADC and represent a lot of circuitry. I just expected to see many more discrete components.
The Lucas Engine Management System Museum may not keep the people over at the Heritage Motor Centre up at night worrying, unless you use the old TVR motor show strategy of employing young ladies to attend.
At that time, they were apparently not thinking about field upgrades either. Once that 40-pin device was soldered into the board, software was not ever going to change again.
It looks like the only way to read this EPROM is to assume that the serial port baud rate and comm protocol are the same as the 14CUX. This is a real possibility since, hardware-wise, both the serial port and oscillator are the same. Also, I'm guessing that the serial port routines were developed early (probably in Bosch L-Jetronic days) since the port was an essential development tool.
In the 14CU photo, components are missing in the lower left, including one of the injector drive transistors. Is this how you determined that it's for a single bank engine, Steve? Also, I'm surprised that there isn't more clutter on the board considering that the two vertical daughter boards had not yet been added. Those daughter boards condition 16 channels worth of signals going into the ADC and represent a lot of circuitry. I just expected to see many more discrete components.
The Lucas Engine Management System Museum may not keep the people over at the Heritage Motor Centre up at night worrying, unless you use the old TVR motor show strategy of employing young ladies to attend.
Dan, any ideas as to what that 9 pin SIL with the heat sink tab is? It seems to have an associated power transistor and chunky capacitors, internal power supply circuits for Vcc maybe?
An attraction for the LEMS museum that would really draw the crowds is a Magical Mystery Tour through the code! If Bletchley Park can do it why not SteveSprint?
An attraction for the LEMS museum that would really draw the crowds is a Magical Mystery Tour through the code! If Bletchley Park can do it why not SteveSprint?
No Dave, I tried looking for the datasheet once before and got nowhere. I think you are correct that it's some sort of power device. I don't find the power section of the board to be very interesting anyway, so I didn't spend too much time on it.
I'd like to add that, from my experience, the hardware aspect of the 14CUX ECU seems to be well designed and robust. On the workbench, the ECU continues to run fine at voltages lower than it would ever see in a vehicle.
I'd like to add that, from my experience, the hardware aspect of the 14CUX ECU seems to be well designed and robust. On the workbench, the ECU continues to run fine at voltages lower than it would ever see in a vehicle.
terryg82 said:
Does anyone know if it's possible to use the 14CUX from a 4 cylinder car on an 8 cylinder one if you swap the eeprom or is there more to it than that?
There's more to than that. If you look at the photo of the 14CU that stevesprint posted, you can see that some components, that would normally drive the second bank of injectors, are missing. I don't know if all 4-cylinder ECUs are missing these parts but it's something to look for.danbourassa said:
terryg82 said:
Does anyone know if it's possible to use the 14CUX from a 4 cylinder car on an 8 cylinder one if you swap the eeprom or is there more to it than that?
There's more to than that. If you look at the photo of the 14CU that stevesprint posted, you can see that some components, that would normally drive the second bank of injectors, are missing. I don't know if all 4-cylinder ECUs are missing these parts but it's something to look for.spitfire4v8 said:
I wonder if the bean counters at saab had a say in that then, they could have used the two injector drivers to run semi sequential on a 4 cyl engine (though the gain over batch fire would be minimal so maybe not worth it in those days). Does the saab ecu only have one injector output then ?
Running semi-sequential would have required software changes, although, from my understanding of the software, I think the changes would have been minimal. Yes, the SAAB ECU appears to have one injector driver. If you compare Steve's photo (above) with Mark's photo here:www.g33.co.uk/images/14cux%20%20internal.jpg
(keep in mind they are flipped) you can see that the T4 power transistor on the heat-sink rail is missing, along with one of the blue capacitors, a power resistor and possibly other components. You're right to question this, Jools. I would have thought that leaving these components installed for all variants of the ECU would have been a better way to go. Standardization has its own cost benefits.
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