Not the normal Hot Start problem.
Discussion
I recently started getting the TADTS hot start problem and after a search on here contacted David at Mod-Wise for one of his relay kits. This seamed to sort things out and with the run out to CITP 3 not giving any problems I thought it confirmed problem solved.
However last week she did it again and wouldn’t start for over half an hour, fortunately I was at home so I left her over night. Next morning, no problem started first go.
Over the weekend I decided to strip down the starter and have a good look, I also checked back on a previous post of mine on the Chimaera Forum too offer some humble pie and realised I’d really put my foot in it, sorry guy’s.
The motor and solenoid were stripped cleaned and inspected everything looked like new, no visible wear, a bit of stickiness in the solenoid from old grease but nothing serious. All was reassembled with an new alloy heat shield from the exhaust manifold and she started up fine.
With the Griff up on stands I lay under her with the engine running to check out the heat build up. While the heat shield did stop the direct heating once the block and bell-housing got hot this was just conducted back and after a while both the motor and solenoid were too hot to touch. Sure enough after switching off she would not restart.
To cut a long story short I found that, if while hot I touched a wire from starter live feed to the solenoid switch wire the starter worked fine. Further investigation showed that once the engine was hot the switch wire feeding the solenoid was no longer live on turn key. Since I now have the Mod-Wise relay fitted the car can be started with the ignition on and simply by touching a live feed to the power side of the relay, in other words Hot Wired.
In conclusion;
Any heat shielding to the starter seams to me a waste of time unless a very thin heat resistant gasket is fitted between the starter and bell-housing to prevent conduction.
In my case it is the wiring between the key switch and the passenger foot-well loom that is susceptible to heat and not the starter and or solenoid. There is no feed to the relay when hot.
All this kept me quiet last weekend and I suppose working through the wiring, immobiliser etc. will do so next weekend. Any thoughts or comments would be most welcome.
Cheers,
Simon.
However last week she did it again and wouldn’t start for over half an hour, fortunately I was at home so I left her over night. Next morning, no problem started first go.
Over the weekend I decided to strip down the starter and have a good look, I also checked back on a previous post of mine on the Chimaera Forum too offer some humble pie and realised I’d really put my foot in it, sorry guy’s.
The motor and solenoid were stripped cleaned and inspected everything looked like new, no visible wear, a bit of stickiness in the solenoid from old grease but nothing serious. All was reassembled with an new alloy heat shield from the exhaust manifold and she started up fine.
With the Griff up on stands I lay under her with the engine running to check out the heat build up. While the heat shield did stop the direct heating once the block and bell-housing got hot this was just conducted back and after a while both the motor and solenoid were too hot to touch. Sure enough after switching off she would not restart.
To cut a long story short I found that, if while hot I touched a wire from starter live feed to the solenoid switch wire the starter worked fine. Further investigation showed that once the engine was hot the switch wire feeding the solenoid was no longer live on turn key. Since I now have the Mod-Wise relay fitted the car can be started with the ignition on and simply by touching a live feed to the power side of the relay, in other words Hot Wired.
In conclusion;
Any heat shielding to the starter seams to me a waste of time unless a very thin heat resistant gasket is fitted between the starter and bell-housing to prevent conduction.
In my case it is the wiring between the key switch and the passenger foot-well loom that is susceptible to heat and not the starter and or solenoid. There is no feed to the relay when hot.
All this kept me quiet last weekend and I suppose working through the wiring, immobiliser etc. will do so next weekend. Any thoughts or comments would be most welcome.
Cheers,
Simon.
Your conclusion is very good and from the problems I had with mine makes perfect sense. The starter gets very hot due to the fact it's attached to the block with little in the middle to prevent conduction so heat shield will probably have little effect, all IMO.
After months of trying different fixes and a new starter motor etc I eventualy found that by refitting the original starter it worked perfectly. What the cure was I don't know but in the mean time I'd fitted a new earth lead to the block, the mod-wise relay and cleaned up the internals of the motor and the solenoid. I've not had a problem since.
After months of trying different fixes and a new starter motor etc I eventualy found that by refitting the original starter it worked perfectly. What the cure was I don't know but in the mean time I'd fitted a new earth lead to the block, the mod-wise relay and cleaned up the internals of the motor and the solenoid. I've not had a problem since.
I'm currently having the same starting problems, it as been playing up on and off all year!!!Sometimes it is fine other times it turns over very slowly (like the battery is low on charge), or it refuses to turnover at all(although it starts no problem first thing when cold)I've had the original starter re-conditioned (this proved worse than before the re-con),tried different heat shields,new battery,cleaned the earth lead, I then fitted a new starter which appeared to cure the problem for a week or so, now it's back to it's old ways again, the only new thing I've noticed is when it is cranking very slowly if I turn the ignition key off then back on quickly it cranks at normal speed and fires, if it refuses to crank the only option is to wait untill it decides to crank (anything between 20 mins or 4 hours)or bump start it (which it does easily)I really need a solution to this problem as parking on an hill is not always possible.
simon.b said:
Any heat shielding to the starter seams to me a waste of time unless a very thin heat resistant gasket is fitted between the starter and bell-housing to prevent conduction.
I'm not sure it is quite so bad as that. Since there's nothing to take the heat away from the starter motor assembly, it is eventually going to reach the same temperature as its surroundings. Adding an insulating gasket may mean it takes ten minutes instead of one, but it's still going to happen sooner or later. The conventional starter motor heat shield isn't supposed to keep the starter motor cooler than the engine (~100C), it is supposed to keep it cooler than the exhaust (~ 1000C) and to stop the side nearest to the exhaust from being cooked.
If the starter motor is thermally connected to the engine by being solidly bolted to it, it is going to stay pretty close to the engine temperature. If you insulate it from the engine and then apply a lot of heat from the exhaust, there's a chance that it could end up a lot hotter than the engine.
budd said:
I'm currently having the same starting problems, it as been playing up on and off all year!!!Sometimes it is fine other times it turns over very slowly (like the battery is low on charge), or it refuses to turnover at all(although it starts no problem first thing when cold)I've had the original starter re-conditioned (this proved worse than before the re-con),tried different heat shields,new battery,cleaned the earth lead, I then fitted a new starter which appeared to cure the problem for a week or so, now it's back to it's old ways again, the only new thing I've noticed is when it is cranking very slowly if I turn the ignition key off then back on quickly it cranks at normal speed and fires, if it refuses to crank the only option is to wait untill it decides to crank (anything between 20 mins or 4 hours)or bump start it (which it does easily)I really need a solution to this problem as parking on an hill is not always possible.
What was the starter you replaced the original with? I tried the Prestolite starter which never really worked on my car but others have had success. After mod-wise'ing the sol feed and adding a new earth to the block and replacing the original starter motor it's worked fine.
As a cheap and worthwhile mod I'd try an additional earth first of all and then go from there.
The lack of starter activating at all, has in all but "simonB" case, (which sounds very much like the immobiliser, Simon, mine did the same with the ignition supply !!!) has been cured by inserting a relay in the solenoid circuit.This is inserted just before the cable goes through to the engine bay. The relay is nothing new, it should be there in my opinion, the cable up to that point is not up to supplying 12 amps over the length of cabling.
A bit like,slow windows and poor lights, much better with heavier cable, or a "mod".
The slow turn over of starter, like a flattish battery has been cured by an additional earth cable direct from the battery neg to the engine block. This cable should be "fat" and short as possible.
If anybody wants just the instructions of how to do the relay mod, thats no problem.
A bit like,slow windows and poor lights, much better with heavier cable, or a "mod".
The slow turn over of starter, like a flattish battery has been cured by an additional earth cable direct from the battery neg to the engine block. This cable should be "fat" and short as possible.
If anybody wants just the instructions of how to do the relay mod, thats no problem.
That’s a good point peter (GreenV8S) conduction works both ways so an insulator could really cook it, though I’m convinced heating the starter is not and never really was the problem. I believe David is on the money and yes the heat requires a bit more current to drive the solenoid, but the standard wiring was never going to deliver the goods. Though now I’ve made a heat shield I’ll be leaving it on.
My favourite at the moment is the immobiliser, though I’m not sure why the fuel pump, which I can hear, fires up and not the starter circuit. Normally when my immobiliser cut’s in everything is dead. Unless it’s a problem in the black box circuitry, is this messy, has anyone opened this up and had a look.
So I’m beginning to think it could also be an earth problem. David I never checked the earth supply back from that green block that the relay earth is connected too. What was this for ? It’s easy to check and replace although this would not of caused my original problem before I fitted your kit, so maybe I’ve two similar problems giving the same result.
Though budd’s does sound like a sticky motor or is that an engine earth.
I hope it’s raining at the weekend so I can stay in the garage and get this sorted.
Cheers,
Simon.
My favourite at the moment is the immobiliser, though I’m not sure why the fuel pump, which I can hear, fires up and not the starter circuit. Normally when my immobiliser cut’s in everything is dead. Unless it’s a problem in the black box circuitry, is this messy, has anyone opened this up and had a look.
So I’m beginning to think it could also be an earth problem. David I never checked the earth supply back from that green block that the relay earth is connected too. What was this for ? It’s easy to check and replace although this would not of caused my original problem before I fitted your kit, so maybe I’ve two similar problems giving the same result.
Though budd’s does sound like a sticky motor or is that an engine earth.
I hope it’s raining at the weekend so I can stay in the garage and get this sorted.
Cheers,
Simon.
I dont think i can send attatchments via here. Email me and i can do it.
Simon, the immobilser has three seperate circuits, the solenoid is one of them. As i said, mine would cut off the ignition supply when it got hot, not nice mid over take on a country road. I by-passed mine on the side of the road ! I can email how you can bypass yours, for testing purposes.
Simon, the immobilser has three seperate circuits, the solenoid is one of them. As i said, mine would cut off the ignition supply when it got hot, not nice mid over take on a country road. I by-passed mine on the side of the road ! I can email how you can bypass yours, for testing purposes.
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