Up in smoke!

Up in smoke!

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V8Bart

Original Poster:

788 posts

189 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
Looking that way, popping over holme moss for a run out before Chatsworth, heading up and engine just starts cackling under load.
Pulled over and some smoke from engine, revving produced blue smoke from exhaust.

Let it sit while breakdown arrived and it starts and ticks over fine!

Oil level, pressure and and temp all good.

No idea what it is this time, but after x2 engine rebuilds, gearbox refresh and x3 oil leaks I'm on the verge of loosing my pride and joy.

Anyone got any ideas what it could be? Ideally a cheap fix haha.

ronspeedsix

206 posts

172 months

Thursday 1st October 2015
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Hard to tell from here with thes few hints, but anyway :

- Are you sure it is blue smoke (most of the times inidicating burnt oil) and it is not black(ish)
- Cackling and smoke together makes me think of ignition (timing ?) and/or fuel system (pressure drop?)

- If it is really blue smoke 9 out of 10 it is oil. But where from ? -> Cylinder bores or valve guides : not likely as it is a revised engine and it should not be intermittent in such case.
So only possibility : via air intake -> maybe oil breathers ?

Ronald

FlipFlopGriff

7,144 posts

246 months

Thursday 1st October 2015
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Ian,
Sorry to hear of your woes, but glad its not just me who has ongoing issues.
Could you have overfilled the oil as I did this once and it smoked. Cant recall if the running was affected - not sure.
Intermittent faults are a nightmare.
FFG

MrMCI

153 posts

156 months

Thursday 1st October 2015
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A mate of mine had similar issues on an e-type and it turned out to be a shot coil. The results were spectacular and terrifying being in a car that was following. I think the heat build-up can cause the coil to break down but it can be sufficiently ok to allow the engine to still run when its cold.
Mark

V8Bart

Original Poster:

788 posts

189 months

Thursday 1st October 2015
quotequote all
Cheers for replies guys,
Yes it was 100% blue smoke, that's what turned my stomach. There was a little smoke coming from engine bay but not much. The oil has not been topped up for a week so not an over fill problem.

Yeah, sorry to hear your having a rough ride as well Paul.

Did take a look at dizzy, seems not to have moved, leads in place and all only couple of months old. Could be fuel but no hesitation from throttle when it happend.

Going to pin my hopes on a dodgy coil Mark I think, cheapest and easiest option lol. Plus the breather pipe was pressing on coil when I inspected.


macdeb

8,492 posts

254 months

Thursday 1st October 2015
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Sorry to hear your woes, and please excuse me but,,,,,,you haven't put diesel in have you? Just noticed your other car and easy mistake.

V8Bart

Original Poster:

788 posts

189 months

Thursday 1st October 2015
quotequote all
Lol, diesel! I wish it was that.

Just had call from garage, engine is fu.. Er I mean dead, needs stripping but definitely internal, bearing spun up or something.
Starts OK, but as temp builds oil pressure dissappears and noise starts.

So I'll be making a call in the morning and hope the builder wants to sort it out, sure they will with only 1200 miles and two months gone.

Hoover.

5,988 posts

241 months

Thursday 1st October 2015
quotequote all
fingers crossed for good customer service smile ...... def shouldn't happen after a few thousand miles

not sure who did your re-build but Power warrantied my engine for 3 years unlimited mileage and actual encouraged me to abuse it...... based on that would be expecting more then a few thou miles

TVR Beaver

2,867 posts

179 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
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WTF!... what were we saying at weekend!... .I can't believe it!... eek

there is only so much bad luck you can have... Then it becomes incompetence!...

Really sorry for you Ian!!...
frown

V8Bart

Original Poster:

788 posts

189 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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So they will inspect it, but not take responsibility for any parts, including the ones they provided and fitted.
In effect, they would have to admit they made a mistake!

I don't understand why they would build an engine they were not happy was 100%? regardless of what parts were used.

To say I'm distraught is a huge under statement.

TVR Beaver

2,867 posts

179 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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Gazzab said:
Mmmm.. what can you say wink I'd not go back (in fact i didn't after my issues)... pulled my engine down myself and glad I did eek

QBee

20,903 posts

143 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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Mine, from the same source, is still running fine, never missed a beat, 23,000 miles and 30 months later, despite 20+ track days.

You seem to have been very unlucky V8Bart - hopefully he will put it right for you.

Pete Mac

755 posts

136 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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Ian

I assume you have spent enough money to make it worth your while pursuing this further and I quote from the thread:

...please don't leave it - you've paid for something that you haven't received why should you be out of pocket.

It may not be necessary to pay a solicitor as you can get free advice from consumer direct http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/ they may even help draft letters for you. Consumer direct are linked to Trading Standards and if enough complaints are made they may get interested in taking enforcement action, can't guarantee anything will happen but if you do nothing neither can they.

Another way to get your money back is via the small claims court http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claim... costs about £80 to start the process but the use of lawyers is not encouraged which keeps costs down.

You don't have to do anything but I would suggest you contact consumer direct and see what advice you are given.....

Good advice I would say and you owe it to others who may be treated the same way. Good luck mate and let us know what happens.

Pete

Loubaruch

1,164 posts

197 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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Very bad luck.

If you do pursue them for compensation etc. and I would, ensure that you have an independent expert, garage etc. inspect your engine before attending court. The court will require solid evidence to come to a decision otherwise it could just be your word against theirs. Ideally ask the independent assessor to attend court or at least give you a comprehensive report.

If you go back to the firm that did the job armed with an independent report they will if they have any sense sort it for you. The thought of having to pay legal fees in the event of losing the action coupled with the potential for bad publicity can be quite persuasive.

The only real winners in these cases are the lawyers!

V8Bart

Original Poster:

788 posts

189 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
Thanks for the advice guys, still hoping for a straight forward solution.
Will make use of them if it comes to it.

All I want is to enjoy my car. Seems alot to ask unfortunately.

v8 racing

2,064 posts

250 months

Tuesday 6th October 2015
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Dear Ian i am sorry to see you have aired your frustrations on ph, but as usual there are always 2 sides to every story so here is my reply.



From: Ian Bartholomew [mailto:ibartholomew@hotmail.com]
Sent: 05 October 2015 16:08
To: v8developments@btconnect.com
Subject: Engine woes

Afternoon guys,

Dear Ian

Im really sorry to hear your engine has failed again, this is extremely uncommon and until either ourselves or an independent garage looks at your engine and asses what has caused something to happen, or what damage has been caused, then we can come up with an action of plan.


Following the phone call this morning I've been digesting the facts, the recent engine failure, the failure of the previous engine you built and work you have carried out for me.

Taken from piston heads unfortunately........ So they will inspect it, but not take responsibility for any parts, including the ones they provided and fitted.
In effect, they would have to admit they made a mistake!

I don't understand why they would build an engine they were not happy was 100%? regardless of what parts were used.

To say I'm distraught is a huge understatement. Is this really what was said? I seem to be a little bit more amicable than this! And what was actually said, after you said was the engine covered under a warranty because you cant even afford to get the car to us was, if it is something that we had done wrong then yes I would repair it, however I also said the engine doesn’t cover any warranty on parts that are your original parts!. As per your last engine we built you, We clearly would never build an engine that we are not 100 percent happy with.


The original Build I paid for, as you know was from scratch, starting with the block being top hatted, new pistons, cam, timing gear, followers, bearings, reworked crank the lot. You assembled the entire engine top to bottom. It ran very mechanically quiet and smooth and produced fantastic power.

Your first build was not scratch or completely new parts from ourselves, we quoted you for one of our bespoke and all brand new parts, unfortunately this exceeded your budget which is fair enough everybody has a budget to consider, so you decided to buy a secondhand broken engine from a friend, this was the block/crank/rods and pistons, when this was checked, due to the previous owner of the engine deciding to hone the bores with the engine in the car, when the engine was run it destroyed the pistons and bores due to swarf, so we supplied new pistons had the block top hat linered for you and rebuilt it, the crank was polished and all checked out ok, the rest of the engine was built using a mix of new parts and your existing parts due to the budget you were on, at the time I also said the engine comes with a 12 month warranty apart from any of your existing parts, which is very fair, as nobody is going to give a warranty on a part already owned and used by yourself. We also did not fit the engine into your car, this was done via another garage.

When that engine failed after 3-4k miles due to the oil pump/woodruff key failure, I paid for build 2, you replaced the oil pump, timing gear, valves, rocker shafts and bearings, and had the crank repaired. This engine was mechanically noisier than the original build particularly when cold.
I ran this engine for nearly 3 months covering about 1200 miles. During this period I had to pay my garage to resolve numerous oil leaks before the latest failure on Wednesday 30th Sep. This time it started "cackling" under acceleration, all readings were good temperature, pressure etc. I stopped immediately. Inspecting the engine there was light smoke coming from it and when the throttle was applied it produced blue smoke from the exhaust and had the cackling/knocking.
The car has since been recovered and inspected by my specialist, they found it loses oil pressure once warm and then knocks/rattles. The advice given was an internal failure of some sort that would need stripping for investigation.

When your first engine expired we were quite surprised but more than willing to take a look at the engine for you, EVEN though it was some 8 months out of warranty, to see what had broken was astounding because after 30 years of building these engines we had never seen anything like this, it appears that the crankshaft woodruff key had sheared and the oil pump had destroyed itself, which came first?? Who knows, by the woodruff key shearing the cam timing had drastically altered which caused the valves to hit the pistons, this caused the valves to bend and also bend the pushrods, so your front cover and your woodruff key one of them caused the said issue, not a part sold by or supplied by ourselves, the bill to repair was from memory £2400, which I reduced to £1800 as a good will gesture, this included having to remove and refit the engine into the car which we didn’t do originally, you instantly got the local tvr regional manager involved who was jumping up and down with anger towards us, did he know the parts were yours? And your original build was on a tight budget? Not that the engine was poorly built!, we did however further reduce this cost again quite significantly down to figure that we became well out of pocket repairing an engine that was damaged, out of warranty and not caused by any part supplied or poor workmanship by v8 developments, our engines are also not covered if any trackdays are done! at this point I also said that this engine WILL not come with a warranty of any kind, this is due to it being a repair of the original engine, and again you supplied parts to keep the cost down, and the fact we were doing it and losing money. You were happy to proceed at this point. I also knew nothing about the oil leaks you had suffered, why didn’t you give us a call to let us know? We would have been happy to help, the first I knew of it was last week when you phoned, you were concerned about any problems that may occur by taking the sump off and re fitting it.


Looking at the situation from my side, I have paid over £4000 for all of the above work only to be back where I started, with a dead engine and no car, plus added financial strain.

So to be told, it's provided with no warranty is alarming. Only if you inspected the engine, find and admit to making a mistake during the build would you contribute to the repair of this engine. One that's only been built 3 months!!

I really do sympathise with you Ian, you have had rotten luck with your car, but I also hope you can see it from our point of view, we feel we have gone above and beyond to help you out, which we will continue to do as practically as possible, as said if you want to get your car to us we will be more than happy to have a look, and even if it is going to cost you money then for certain customers we have in the past let them pay us monthly, if it helps there situation out. However if you decide to go down the small claims court and decide to get solicitors involved then thats your choice and I certainly wont beg you not too.

You will understand I'm hesitant to get my car delivered at my expense over 100 miles for inspection when in all likely hood I will be told to pay for rebuild number 3, presumably under the same stipulation that there is no warranty? How could I expect to get strong reliable engine considering my terrible experience?

Yes I do understand, your warranty was on your original build, that was well out of warranty when we repaired it, do you expect that when anything breaks that you buy and you get a replacement that you get a complete new warranty? Simply put no you don’t, if you by a tv with a 12 month warranty and it packs up after 11 months, it will either be repaired or a replacement, you will then have a 1 month warranty left, if you had a tv with a 12 month warranty and it packed up after 20 months you will be told to purchase a new one at the nicest of comments!

You are in effect saying to me, you are willing to build and charge me for an engine that you are not happy with, may fail at any time, and you therefore take no responsibility for?

Im not saying that at all.

Simply put, would you be happy with V8 Developments?

Simply put yes I would.


Ian Bartholomew

Rob Robertson



Mob.

Mob 07951208383


Edited by v8 racing on Tuesday 6th October 18:57

V8Bart

Original Poster:

788 posts

189 months

Tuesday 6th October 2015
quotequote all
Hi Rob
Good to know you are happy to talk about v8 developments on here, I had not made any mention of you until now.

I'm surprised but happy that you have posted our private conversation, though would be grateful if you removed my private details from your post. Cheers.


I'll be in touch asap.

Ian.

v8 racing

2,064 posts

250 months

Tuesday 6th October 2015
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Hi Ian your phone number has now been removed, and yes I am happy to discuss either privately or via a public forum, it's not like I instigated coming on here is it! The Tvr community is very small and all though you never mentioned our name a vast amount of people will know who built your engine, this is also contributed by garza and Tvr beaver loading a link to a bad report to v8 developments which you have clearly seen! Again 2 sides to every story and a guy trying to drive with no water in his engine wonders why his new engine failed!! More details if required, I am so angry however that you chose to come on piston heads saying we are not prepared to do anything!! That is utter rubbish and you know it!

V8Bart

Original Poster:

788 posts

189 months

Tuesday 6th October 2015
quotequote all
Sorry Rob but I've not said you'll do nothing, I said:-

"So they will inspect it, but not take responsibility for any parts, including the ones they provided and fitted."

Which is true, I asked if this meant parts you just fitted like the bearings you said no parts covered.

"In effect, they would have to admit they made a mistake!"
Which is also true, I would be relying on you admitting a workmanship issue.

I'm not here to cause trouble, I was hoping for advice. There was nothing sinister about me being gutted and sharing my experience.

I will be in touch asap, but I'm not getting into a public mud slinging match.


Gazzab

21,061 posts

281 months

Tuesday 6th October 2015
quotequote all
Apologies for putting up that link.