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FlipFlopGriff

4,883 posts

116 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th July 2012 quote quote all
christof said:
With all the EEC type approval stuff for emissions, noises, pedestrian safety the old and glory TVR way isn't working anymore.

Using a crate engine alone doesn't solve the issues the new EEC laws for emissions, crash testing and future driver aids.

If I would plan a relaunch for TVR I would ask the Volkswagen group to deliver the 5 cylinder engine from the Audi TTR-S which is delivering an awesome noise and is good for 400BHP with EUR 5 emissions, togehter with the drive train and the entire electrics/wiring loom and ECU's for driver aids like ABS, ESP, TC, etc.

Using all the accessories from a OEM can't be a bad thing and will save a significant amount of cash for development and decrease the chance that the car will break down.

Spend this budget on a proper CAD engineering to implement all the OEM stuff in a spectacular TVR design body and try to get the weight down as possible.

If you can get the weight down to 1100KG you have generated the ultimate toy for the road and the track.

Christof
From the way the previous NS discussions with VAG went I don;t think that will happen.
FFG

900T-R

18,560 posts

126 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th July 2012 quote quote all
FlipFlopGriff said:
From the way the previous NS discussions with VAG went I don;t think that will happen.
FFG
NS would be out of the picture in any case, as he's just publically stated he's not going to do anything with TVR... And methinks the - apparently pretty friendly - contacts of former TVR key people with VAG's senior engineers would not take that much to rekindle?

crosseyedlion

497 posts

67 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th July 2012 quote quote all
Here's how I'd start.

2 seat coupe (similar to t350)

Longer wheelbase (over 100inches)

Stiffer chassis

Easy RHD or LHD (no new body required)

longer springs/shocks (for ride quality - better handling of small high frequency stuff)

Chevy ls3 (low cost, reliable, 430bhp)

Drivers airbag + optional abs & traction control (so it could be marketed as a daily or grab some custom off porsche)

As many mainstream, none bespoke parts as possible - but with a stunning modern interior (keeps costs low, may get a kit car image again, but that wouldnt hurt it if the build quality and looks/interior are up to standard)

Cheaper more ordinary but still powerful braking system.

Designed to be as simply and quickly assembled as possible.

35-50k selling price. Keep it under 1300kgs. It'd be a hell of a car.

cymtriks

4,014 posts

114 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
If you really want a revived TVR then the best thing is to make one of the T cars exactly as it was. Engineering changes will be expensive and will always be subject to knock on effects that will result in more expense and changes somewhere else. Keep production small, possibly selling the car as a part built kit. Sell body panels and engine bits to existing owners to help with cash flow. Only make changes that are absolutely essential for legislation reasons or to correct serious known faults. Changing the styling is likely to be a very expensive thing to do so should be avoided untill the new company has built at least a hundred cars.

Who actually has the body molds and chassis jigs?
Who actually has the rights to the AJP V8 and the Speed 6 engines?
Are the T cars now out of copyright anyway?
In other words, does it matter who owns what any more, could a company called RVT, TrVoR, Griffith Motors or T-Cars be perfectly safe making any of the T car variants?

In the longer term a new chassis in backbone style but made out of CNC cut and folded sheet steel (a kind of Lotus backbone but with modern build tech) or out of composites (you could stack these in an autoclave as they would be far smaller than a full car body) with bonded in fixings for everything) would give a more accurate, cheaper and stiffer base. Fitted with a revised suspension it could be fitted under a minimum change T car.

Changing the engine is going to be a very expensive process, it isn't just the engine, it's also everything that fits round it or on it. A bought in straight six is going to restrict you to the Volvo/Ford 3.2 or BMW 3.0 as I don't think anyone else makes one unless you go to Aston Martin (their recent S6) or to Falconer (their 5.0 liter six) for a race derived unit.

DonkeyApple

12,017 posts

38 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
The answer to the first half is almost certainly a yes.

But, the question is the price. Even using existing chassis and body designs it's going to be expensive.

Who'd pay £50+ for a Griff etc?

In today's world I think you'd need a chassis truly capable of laying down 400 bhp plus to maintain a TVR ethos and you'd be making new moulds for the shells anyway as the originals were a bit crap and now very old and in Germany.

New shape, modern chassis. A new start.

But in the current climate I just don't think anyone would attempt it.
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cymtriks

4,014 posts

114 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
DonkeyApple said:
But, the question is the price. Even using existing chassis and body designs it's going to be expensive.

Who'd pay £50+ for a Griff etc?
How much do people pay for a top spec Cobra replica or Ultima? Why should a new T car be any different?

DonkeyApple said:
In today's world I think you'd need a chassis truly capable of laying down 400 bhp plus to maintain a TVR ethos and you'd be making new moulds for the shells anyway as the originals were a bit crap and now very old and in Germany.

New shape, modern chassis. A new start.
The existing chassis was good enough and molds could be taken from existing cars.

Reproducing an existing T car would also help re-establish the new company (with a new name) as the successor to TVR, not just a different car with with letters T, V or R somewhere on the name plate.

Doing anything else to restart the company is a very high financial risk, even higher than what I've proposed!

It may be possible to do a small number of effective changes to the existing design to improve the chassis, stiffness isn't that far behind other small volume cars and the geometry can be changed as on the later T cars. There must be a few engineers on PH who'd do it free just to be involved.

DonkeyApple said:
But in the current climate I just don't think anyone would attempt it.
Well it would be very high risk but on the other hand we have Caterham, Morgan, Ariel and Ginetta who all face very similar engineering, financial and legislative issues.

DonkeyApple

12,017 posts

38 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
I agree but those firms have already sunk their costs. Plus, you'd have to pay the people who have the jigs for the chassis and various other people for other bits.

The big question though is if you had £10m to do something with why would you ever try and build a car when you can get 10-20% guaranteed, govt backed returns from ffing mental green subsidies.

You wouldn't be able to borrow for such a project either.

Plus the number of clients in the UK has shrunk by a massive magnitude as households de leverage and focus what cash they have on necessities and yielding investments.

The problem is that the climate is wrong.


dhf

1,103 posts

63 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
DonkeyApple said:
The big question though is if you had £10m to do something with why would you ever try and build a car when you can get 10-20% guaranteed, govt backed returns from ffing mental green subsidies.
?

ajprice

7,221 posts

65 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
dhf said:
DonkeyApple said:
The big question though is if you had £10m to do something with why would you ever try and build a car when you can get 10-20% guaranteed, govt backed returns from ffing mental green subsidies.
?
E-TVR!! idea

http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/Lightning/Lig...

cymtriks

4,014 posts

114 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
A resurrected TVR would need to build up slowly and involve TVR suppliers and owners from the begining.

It would go something like this:
  • Choose a name that evokes TVR, say Griffith Motors or TrVoR.
  • Get, and keep, involvement of owners club and current TVR suppliers. Sell the idea as future business for all.
  • A T car chassis with known, proven, suspension wheel/tyre/brakes/geometry changes built in.
  • A body from a mold taken off an existing car. Changes for legislation and/or copyright reasons only. Ideally no change at all.
  • Speed Six engine with known, proven, changes built in. For example Syvecs, FFF head, TVR power internals and block.
  • the result will be similar enough to be a recognisable continuation, benefit from existing know-how but (just) different enough to get round any remaining legal obstacles.
  • consider supplying in a partly disassembled form, just at or above a top end kit (Cobra or Ultima for example) price.
All the above would ensure continuity and at least some by-in from interested parties. If you don't do this you run the risk of being another "Sniff Petrol" supercar with no link to TVR other than the claims of the creators to be making cars in the right spirit.

  • after 100 cars slot a new chassis in with better stiffness, see post above for possible tech details.
  • offer parts for sale that can be retrofitted as improvements or replacements (suspension mods, new S6 engine, body panels) to the existing cars
  • consider selling shares in the new company with every car or part that is sold. The ultimate aim being that those who drive, build, repair and work at the company actually own it and, via shareholders meetings, run it. Lets face it, you'd all love to do that.
You may find that there is more support than you think, after all the owners club, power, the FFF and all the other spares and upgrades only exist for as long as the cars do. More cars equals more future.

V8 GRF

5,804 posts

79 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
cymtriks said:
Lots<snip>

  • after 100 cars slot a new chassis in with better stiffness, see post above for possible tech details.
But there's your big problem, I don't think you'll be able to sell 100 of these 'copies' with enough profit to sustain the business as you suggest.

DonkeyApple

12,017 posts

38 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
dhf said:
?
The point being that for anyone who actually has cash at the moment why would you invest in a highly risky venture of selling expensive sports cars to a group of people with no money when you can lend your cash to govt backed green schemes with very low risk and enormous yield?

dvs_dave

3,574 posts

94 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
cymtriks said:
A bought in straight six is going to restrict you to the Volvo/Ford 3.2 or BMW 3.0 as I don't think anyone else makes one unless you go to Aston Martin (their recent S6) or to Falconer (their 5.0 liter six) for a race derived unit.
Nope, you'd go to Ford Australia and get hold of their "Barra" engine, a 4.0 Turbo Strait-6. The top tune of which pushes 416hp and 417lbft out of the factory. Bonkers tuning potential for these motors as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Barra_engine

After all, it's not the first time TVR have gone to Australia for engines. The White Elephant prototype used a Holden 5.0 V8, so there's an historic connection with the Aussies there, and I'm sure Ford would happily sell these engines as by all accounts they need the sales. smile

900T-R

18,560 posts

126 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
'Cos it's more fun? If I were independently wealthy, I'd be looking into how to spend my days doing something I'm passionate about rather than how to become er, more independently wealthy. You can't take it with you, anyway...

I have a distinct feeling people tend to forget that time, not money is our most valuable asset.

I'm sure PW must have thought along similar lines. smile

dhf

1,103 posts

63 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
DonkeyApple said:
The point being that for anyone who actually has cash at the moment why would you invest in a highly risky venture of selling expensive sports cars to a group of people with no money when you can lend your cash to govt backed green schemes with very low risk and enormous yield?
sorry,it was the spelling mistake that was throwing me

DonkeyApple

12,017 posts

38 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
dhf said:
sorry,it was the spelling mistake that was throwing me
Ah. Sorry. Shocking speller. Plus iPhone. Not a great combo.

dhf

1,103 posts

63 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
DonkeyApple said:
Ah. Sorry. Shocking speller. Plus iPhone. Not a great combo.
Did you get Niki's stockings off ?!

cymtriks

4,014 posts

114 months

[news] 
Saturday 21st July 2012 quote quote all
V8 GRF said:
But there's your big problem, I don't think you'll be able to sell 100 of these 'copies' with enough profit to sustain the business as you suggest.
Ginetta?
Caterham?
ultima?
kirkham?
Ariel?

EGB

928 posts

26 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th July 2012 quote quote all
Just my two peneth worth. A new TVR needs a stronger more compliant chassis suspension set up for B roads. Check out the Maxza MX5 chassis and suspension for ideas. On the EVO west track driven by EVO test driver, the Mazda was as good as or better on nearly all corners than the 1999 Griffith. The Maz is also comfortably fast on B roads.


Edited by EGB on Tuesday 24th July 15:25

V8 GRF

5,804 posts

79 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th July 2012 quote quote all
cymtriks said:
V8 GRF said:
But there's your big problem, I don't think you'll be able to sell 100 of these 'copies' with enough profit to sustain the business as you suggest.
Ginetta?
Caterham?
ultima?
kirkham?
Ariel?
Ginettas -- As mentioned a handful of roadcars, probaly around 100 race cars now but over a 7 - 8 year period
Caterham- Proper brand been going for years
Ultima- Like it or not they're a kit car and the majority wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot barge pole, again going for years, be interesting to know how many they've sold and how many of those are actually on the road
Kirkham -- Who? Unless you mean the Cobra replicas by Hawk? Again Kit car
Ariel -- Started small, niche product being going for about ten years slowy ramped up but not a copy of anything.

By the time your replicas had sold anything like the numbers you're talking about you'd have closed.
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