Hot hatches as an investment? Give me your opinions!
Discussion
EP3 premier edition
DC2 Uk model
Clio 200, especially the no frills factory cup variety (black door mirrors and side strips, and 35kg lighter than the full fat cup).
Megane 225 possibly as they're just so quirky
The trouble is, you'll have to spend money maintaining, storing, insuring them.
I tried this route and gave up in the end.
The "future classic" thing means that the expected future value is baked in already.
The trick now would be finding something undiscovered.
i.e. something that the americans can't import due to the 25 yr rule that features in Gran Turismo or Forza that the current 20 yr olds will want when they're 45. A bit like R32/R33/R34 prices
DC2 Uk model
Clio 200, especially the no frills factory cup variety (black door mirrors and side strips, and 35kg lighter than the full fat cup).
Megane 225 possibly as they're just so quirky
The trouble is, you'll have to spend money maintaining, storing, insuring them.
I tried this route and gave up in the end.
The "future classic" thing means that the expected future value is baked in already.
The trick now would be finding something undiscovered.
i.e. something that the americans can't import due to the 25 yr rule that features in Gran Turismo or Forza that the current 20 yr olds will want when they're 45. A bit like R32/R33/R34 prices
I'd buy the very best condition and lowest mileage 2004 or newer Mini Cooper S (R53) and then maintain it well.
It won't make you loads of money, but in 5+ years there won't be many left and people will yearn for a supercharger whine in a Mini I bet - can see them doubling in price by then.
It won't make you loads of money, but in 5+ years there won't be many left and people will yearn for a supercharger whine in a Mini I bet - can see them doubling in price by then.
v9 said:
Megane RS250 seem to have dropped considerably recently. Mine needs a bit of work and I’m weighing up if it’s worth fixing or scrapping. Will probably fix it but it’s a close run thing. I think they might be pretty close to rock bottom. Not many about and a really good steer.
Cheapest 250's are about 6k at the lowest end. What needs doing that you'd think you need to scrap it? Seems pretty extreme to me.pb8g09 said:
I'd buy the very best condition and lowest mileage 2004 or newer Mini Cooper S (R53) and then maintain it well.
It won't make you loads of money, but in 5+ years there won't be many left and people will yearn for a supercharger whine in a Mini I bet - can see them doubling in price by then.
I think a late R53 MCS is a good callIt won't make you loads of money, but in 5+ years there won't be many left and people will yearn for a supercharger whine in a Mini I bet - can see them doubling in price by then.
Someone mentioned a Lupo GTi too - I’d definitely be thinking of that
A 6-speed 325ti offers something different too
I'm sceptical that buying mainstream hot hatches from the 2000s or 2010s is a good investment. The 1980s and 1990s stuff has gone up in value because there are a bunch of old Gen Xers buying the cars of their youth. I'm not sure that late MiIllenials and Gen Z will have the same fondness for the cars of their youth (or cars at all), and I don't really buy the "last of the manual ICE" line used to argue that any old stuff from the 2010s is a rock sold investment.
Until about five years ago £5k was still feasible for an investment-grade car. Today I'd say you need £10k.
The key thing if you're looking at an investment is low miles. Given the way that the UK market is, you'd ideally want something something with substantially less than 100k miles so that you can enjoy for a few years then market it on later still with less than 100k miles.
But you're mostly looking at cars which are 20+ years old now, and finding a good example with <100k miles on for £5k will be hard.
The key thing if you're looking at an investment is low miles. Given the way that the UK market is, you'd ideally want something something with substantially less than 100k miles so that you can enjoy for a few years then market it on later still with less than 100k miles.
But you're mostly looking at cars which are 20+ years old now, and finding a good example with <100k miles on for £5k will be hard.
Lil_Red_GTV said:
I'm sceptical that buying mainstream hot hatches from the 2000s or 2010s is a good investment. The 1980s and 1990s stuff has gone up in value because there are a bunch of old Gen Xers buying the cars of their youth. I'm not sure that late MiIllenials and Gen Z will have the same fondness for the cars of their youth (or cars at all), and I don't really buy the "last of the manual ICE" line used to argue that any old stuff from the 2010s is a rock sold investment.
Nostalgia is part of it, but there's more to it than that.In a few years there will be enough people who realise what we've lost, and that this era of cars were the peak for driving enjoyment. What hatch can you buy new today that's light weight, three pedals, and hydraulically steered?
culpz said:
Cheapest 250's are about 6k at the lowest end. What needs doing that you'd think you need to scrap it? Seems pretty extreme to me.
There have been several selling for a price starting with a 5 over the last couple of months. It’s just an accumulation of small jobs, brakes, brake lines, calipers, handbrake, dampers, top mounts, intercooler is rotten, geometry (top mount related) tyres (£200 each) wheels badly need a refurb, small cosmetic issues, fuel gauge is dodgy, now it’s thrown a CEL. Can’t really sell it in this condition as a running car, though it goes well, and it’s near the value to fix all this properly. That’s without the CEL being a big£ fix - not sure yet what that issue is. Sell it as a ‘spares or repair’ might get £2k. People were asking £10k plus a year or two back, but they just don’t sell at that price. The current reality is that they are about half that value.
plenty said:
Lil_Red_GTV said:
I'm sceptical that buying mainstream hot hatches from the 2000s or 2010s is a good investment. The 1980s and 1990s stuff has gone up in value because there are a bunch of old Gen Xers buying the cars of their youth. I'm not sure that late MiIllenials and Gen Z will have the same fondness for the cars of their youth (or cars at all), and I don't really buy the "last of the manual ICE" line used to argue that any old stuff from the 2010s is a rock sold investment.
Nostalgia is part of it, but there's more to it than that.In a few years there will be enough people who realise what we've lost, and that this era of cars were the peak for driving enjoyment. What hatch can you buy new today that's light weight, three pedals, and hydraulically steered?
The motorsport pedigree one is important. RS2000/ Impreza, rally scene and Cosworth/ Skyline (especially R32) for track exploits.
Anyone able to find something that tick all 4 points or comes close for £5k. I can't think of anything.
Good thread, I'm looking for something late 90s/00s that could break-even on ownership costs i.e. appreciate a touch to cover maintenance and struggle to get behind ideas. I'd like a Porsche or something really but they're a lot of dosh for something that will be lightly used and I'd rather put the money towards a better daily, as with kids and dogs how much would something like that really be used sits on my mind.
I have a nice Corrado VR6 with some nice bits - Recaro, Audioscapes, the oil volt dials, sensible miles (91k) and all the history BUT it's a crap "investment" and I can never see it being worth "something". Either way I like it and will keep it for that reason. I've just refreshed it with bushes, bearings, refurbished subframes, chains, clutch etc and it had a clean MOT pass last week.
Shameless pics
I like mk2 Golfs to look at but it's just another old car, like the Corrado but slower and not as good. Something more modern that would be nicer to drive would suit me
Audi S3 225
Mk5 Edition 30
Leon Cupra (Mk1)
R32 (but I already have a 6 pot)
something Renualt Sport?
Mini Cooper S R53
I have a nice Corrado VR6 with some nice bits - Recaro, Audioscapes, the oil volt dials, sensible miles (91k) and all the history BUT it's a crap "investment" and I can never see it being worth "something". Either way I like it and will keep it for that reason. I've just refreshed it with bushes, bearings, refurbished subframes, chains, clutch etc and it had a clean MOT pass last week.
Shameless pics
I like mk2 Golfs to look at but it's just another old car, like the Corrado but slower and not as good. Something more modern that would be nicer to drive would suit me
Audi S3 225
Mk5 Edition 30
Leon Cupra (Mk1)
R32 (but I already have a 6 pot)
something Renualt Sport?
Mini Cooper S R53
Lil_Red_GTV said:
I'm sceptical that buying mainstream hot hatches from the 2000s or 2010s is a good investment. The 1980s and 1990s stuff has gone up in value because there are a bunch of old Gen Xers buying the cars of their youth. I'm not sure that late MiIllenials and Gen Z will have the same fondness for the cars of their youth (or cars at all), and I don't really buy the "last of the manual ICE" line used to argue that any old stuff from the 2010s is a rock sold investment.
I think the 'elder millenial' thing is still there. I just turned 40 and if I could afford to, I'd be buying lots of the hatches I missed out on from the early 2000's when I wanted one at 18-21 and couldn't afford to buy one.Luckily I bought my EP3 10 years ago when they were rock bottom prices and it's now sat in my garage 'appreciating'
(read as: in bits) and will be never be sold. When I bought that, there were 16,000 of the origial 19,000 on the road, it's now somewhere around 5,500 (with nearly as many 'SORN', mostly scrapped for the engines) and prices are rising.pb8g09 said:
I'd buy the very best condition and lowest mileage 2004 or newer Mini Cooper S (R53) and then maintain it well.
It won't make you loads of money, but in 5+ years there won't be many left and people will yearn for a supercharger whine in a Mini I bet - can see them doubling in price by then.
Chap round the corner from me has had three R53 Mini GPs' on his driveway for at least the past 7-8yrs (possibly longer). I can only think it's an investment thing to have so many. It won't make you loads of money, but in 5+ years there won't be many left and people will yearn for a supercharger whine in a Mini I bet - can see them doubling in price by then.
Also has an Impreza P1, Exige V6 Roadster, Mk2 Golf GTI, 987 Boxster Spyder, and a 997 GT2. Clearly a man of good taste.
Zarco said:
Chap round the corner from me has had three R53 Mini GPs' on his driveway for at least the past 7-8yrs (possibly longer). I can only think it's an investment thing to have so many.
Also has an Impreza P1, Exige V6 Roadster, Mk2 Golf GTI, 987 Boxster Spyder, and a 997 GT2. Clearly a man of good taste.
Clearly a man with a very large driveway!Also has an Impreza P1, Exige V6 Roadster, Mk2 Golf GTI, 987 Boxster Spyder, and a 997 GT2. Clearly a man of good taste.
v9 said:
culpz said:
Cheapest 250's are about 6k at the lowest end. What needs doing that you'd think you need to scrap it? Seems pretty extreme to me.
There have been several selling for a price starting with a 5 over the last couple of months. It’s just an accumulation of small jobs, brakes, brake lines, calipers, handbrake, dampers, top mounts, intercooler is rotten, geometry (top mount related) tyres (£200 each) wheels badly need a refurb, small cosmetic issues, fuel gauge is dodgy, now it’s thrown a CEL. Can’t really sell it in this condition as a running car, though it goes well, and it’s near the value to fix all this properly. That’s without the CEL being a big£ fix - not sure yet what that issue is. Sell it as a ‘spares or repair’ might get £2k. People were asking £10k plus a year or two back, but they just don’t sell at that price. The current reality is that they are about half that value.
I have watched a lot of videos on youtube of people flipping old 90s hot hatches and they lose a heap of money each time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkAAEEpnz_4
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
I have watched a lot of videos on youtube of people flipping old 90s hot hatches and they lose a heap of money each time.
This is the crux of it and the 80s/90s cars were a lot simplier to maintan vs later 00s + cars to make costs even worse. I do much of the work myself on my Corrado. The engine works and some other bits of bobs (sensors, wishbones, labour) amounted to £3k (didn't do that bit myself) and this year i have DIY reburbished the rear axle to include all new parts, powdercoating, brake lines, bearings front and rear , new suspension and that was another £2k with no labour, just me and buying parts. I'm not counting all the tooling I have (press, proper brake line flare tool etc etc etc) costs thousands.
Could I do as much on a more modern car? Not sure, might end up costing even more as a result. Mk2s are looking a lot more attractive again to me as I know them like the back of my hand, know where to get parts, and have lots of spares and they are still relatively cheap.
I think the only way to make money on old hatches is to buy them at near scrap money, store them in a dry place for 20+ years and then send them to auction without cleaning them as "barn finds"
In 1997 I part exchanged a 1987 205 1.6 GTi for £995 and effectively gave away a 1985 Fiat Uno Turbo.
With the Astra GTE video I linked to earlier they paid £7,848 for the car at Auction, spent £12,652 repairing it and sold it for £15,500.
A loss of basically £5K.
Back in the 90s my brother used to race minis and we scrapped loads of them that we were either given for free or paid £50 if they had some nice bits on.
I dread to think how much they would be worth now if instead of scrapping them we had just put them in a dry place and shut the door for 25 years.
Also we are at the point where older cars are on the cusp of being unfixable as classic cars. I would say anything 2010 onwards with lots of complex electronics is going to be impossible to restore once it has been off the road for 10+ years.
In 1997 I part exchanged a 1987 205 1.6 GTi for £995 and effectively gave away a 1985 Fiat Uno Turbo.
With the Astra GTE video I linked to earlier they paid £7,848 for the car at Auction, spent £12,652 repairing it and sold it for £15,500.
A loss of basically £5K.
Back in the 90s my brother used to race minis and we scrapped loads of them that we were either given for free or paid £50 if they had some nice bits on.
I dread to think how much they would be worth now if instead of scrapping them we had just put them in a dry place and shut the door for 25 years.
Also we are at the point where older cars are on the cusp of being unfixable as classic cars. I would say anything 2010 onwards with lots of complex electronics is going to be impossible to restore once it has been off the road for 10+ years.
Edited by ThingsBehindTheSun on Monday 20th May 14:55
To be fair at least you were using them as intended and had some good deals along the way to get the parts needed. The Mini's created memories 
You're right there about 2010+ probably won't have a chance to become classics due to obsolete complex parts. That mixed with the youth's lease and throw away mentaility makes me wonder whether they'll ever aspire to owning a classic car.
Maybe they are right, the old cars can be absolute money pits.
You're right there about 2010+ probably won't have a chance to become classics due to obsolete complex parts. That mixed with the youth's lease and throw away mentaility makes me wonder whether they'll ever aspire to owning a classic car.
Maybe they are right, the old cars can be absolute money pits.
RenaultSport. I don't like everything about them and I've never owned one. But in 15yrs time I suspect the remaining Clios and Meganes will be strong money. good Fords always seem to do well. R53 Mini is a sure fire bet - renowned designer got it so right, and it's supercharged!
It's not an investment but it's not a bad thing to at least aim for some appreciation and be left with the running costs for the fun. After all, biggest cost of most new cars is depreciation.
It's not an investment but it's not a bad thing to at least aim for some appreciation and be left with the running costs for the fun. After all, biggest cost of most new cars is depreciation.
CABC said:
good Fords always seem to do well.
You have just reminded me, when I owned my Fiat Uno Turbo my friend owned a Red G reg RS turbo with 75K on the clock that he paid £4K for. He ended up doing a further 75K miles in that car and it eventually failed it's MOT due to corrosion around 2002 and got left in his works car parkAfter about six months his work got sick of it being there and he sold it to someone he worked with for £400.
It is amazing what you could pick up for peanuts back then, as I said I sold a fully working 205 GTi with MOT for £1K.
No one wanted them, I remember looking at Cosworths in Auto trader for £5K as nobody could get insurance for them.
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